## r/europe EU IV Tierlist Session 5
Idea totally not stolen from another EU IV mp group
to make things easier for me I'm still dividing the list into 3 parts by continent, I'll count the country belonging to the continent where it has its capital.
Unsurprisingly, the Mamluks are the strongest African power as they already start as one of the strongest countries in the world. But it still has some room for improvement which is why it's not an **A-Tier**. Almost 800 dev mean it can have a decent FL of 58, decent manpower pool of 62k and decent income of 51. However, it currently is 800 in debt and has 9 inflation so its going to take some time before buildings will be built to make the most out of their provinces.
With one of the best armies in the world their military power certainly is something to watch out for, and their navy isn't all too shabby either. The Idea choices are kind of odd but maybe he is going for a lot of mercenaries, as he has defensive 5/7, administrative 5/7 and now quantity 2/7. With a Full manpower pool, the Mamluks are ready for war, but expansion paths are kind of locked as he's allied with all his neighbours except Byzantium and Georgia, both orthodox countries.
Closely behind is Songhai. They have consolidated most of Western Africa and have even dealt with most of the unrest problems that come with that. Their income and Force limit is actually higher than that of the Mamluks despite lower dev of 656, but their army is of lower quality since they have not unlocked their superior national ideas yet and the idea choices in general will keep them behind for some time, I'm not sure the Espionage ideas are on purpose (0/7). Defensive is at 6/7 and Innovative at 1/7, but at least their tech is one of the best in the World at 12/11/12.
They also have Full manpower and are also allied to their neighbours. This lead to him spending some time drilling, and the armies are fully drilled now, giving a small edge in the first battles should someone try to get a foothold in Africa. Songhai is only a landpower though, proud navy of one cog.
Kongo united most of the Congo basin and then went on to colonise a lot of the coast, preventing Europeans to get a foothold before moving on and founding his first Colonial nation in Argentina. Also grabbed mighty Mapuche as a vassal so the rich Incan gold mines will probably soon start giving some money. This puts him at odds with Castile though, whom he has rivaled already.
What puts him a tier below is his lower dev and all that entails. with 366 dev he still has an FL of 58, but that is because he has Quantity ideas filled out. The income of 31 is considerably lower than that of the **B-tiers** and his army also has quite low quality as a result of the idea choices, with only 2.5% discipline and 3.3 morale. Another weak point is that he still doesn't have Colonialism, which adds +45% tech cost and as a result, his tech is at 10/10/10. At least the idea groups are going well though, almost unlocking all national ideas with Exploration 7/7, Quantity 7/ and Economic 4/7.
Rwanda so far has surprised many and I don't know all that happened in Africa but he prevailed against Kilwa and a strong Ethiopia which puts him at 551 dev now but at quite the cost. 6/4/10 tech and also no Colonialism, but at least thats spreading and almost ready to embrace with 1k mil and diplo points stored. He also took the rich Ethiopian Goldmine but i's not cored yet but his income of 41 will see an increase when thats done.
Morocco struck a strategic alliance with Tuscany and immediately benefitted from it, weakening Naples and taking Sevilla. Al Andalus might not be a pipedream. His land army is rather small, his 308 dev give him a force limit of 31 and manpowerpool of 21k, but his navy is one of the strongest in the world right now, with 16 heavies, 8 lights, 10 cogs and 2.9 naval morale. Allied to Songhai and colonising Brazil he still has room to expand, mainly Naples and Castile, though that depends how much the Europeans will defend the strait. He already controls both Ceuta and Gibraltar and built a fort there so his grip is tight. Being close to Europe also entails better institution spread so his tech and ideas are decent with 11/11/11 and Exploration 7/7, Defensive 7/7 and Economic 4/7. He took a lot of loans to get there though which left a legacy of 8.5 inflation. And even now he runs a deficit because he is one over colonial limit, but I guess the raiding fleet will take care of that, with bases popping up in America.
Mutapa, known for having had a large treasury has fallen behind a bit. He took a lot of Kilwan land and Madagascar, but that shit still has high autonomy so he's not getting much out of it yet. With 326 dev he has a force limit of 27, manpower pool of 23k and income of 38. 17 of that is from Gold so he has some nice inflation at 13.7, even with tradition, economic ideas and advisor he can barely keep it there. While his land army is quite small and of bad quality, he *does* have 45% army professionalism! Also in the no-colonialism-club but tech at 9/9/12 so not too bad, idea groups a bit behind though with only Exploration 2/7 (probably going to delete this later) and Economic 4/7. Moving the trade city from zambezi to Zanzibar could increase the income.
A surprising African and the apperance here on the list already tells the story. After a promising start, dismantling Tunisia and getting Sicily, it got cut off by its allies and is now being pushed out of Italy by Tuscany. Some Bankruptcies left a legacy of 11.5% inflation and 13 corruption as well as keeping tech behind on 8/10/12 and ideas Quality 7/7 and Economic 2/7. Morale, troop count and income definitely are an issue and it's very reliant on its allies, if they even deem him worthy still. France currently is not allied. Enemies on all sides coveting his lands spells doom, but at least he has the Pope as a vassal.
I'm not actually sure this is a player still. It is by far the worst African and Songhai probably only keeps him alive until Benin finished colonising the coast.
Not even a Great Power but already one oft he strongest countries in the world, despite its trade focused national ideas. 3rd highest income in the world with 105, 4th highest force limit with 85 and all this with 629 dev. The stats speak for themselves, technology going well with 11/12/12 (tech year) and ideas Quality 7/7, Economic 3/7 and Offensive 2/7 he is going with one of the meta builds, leading to a very capable army. Confined his ally Vijayanagar to the south of India, a neutral Tibet to the North and a friendly rival ~~Timurids~~ Mughals to the West so pretty safe if nothing changes. Already building Manufactories and sports the most force limit buildings out of all the players, we might see a repetition of Malwa from a few campaigns ago.
3rd highest player dev, but constant wars, rebels and bankruptcies keep the autonomy quite high so the Mughal Empire is far from its potential. Army quality is actually quite good though, if you disregard the bad tech. 5 disci, 4.5 Morale but only 10/11/10 tech so 2 military techs behind, tech 13 (cannons) comes in 12 years. Idea groups aren't looking much better and I'm not sure one of them is serious. Didn't keep Timurid ideas and switched to Mughal ideas, a questionable choice already, Defensive 5/7, Economic 1/7, Humanist 0/7, delete the last one please. With 1-2 decades of peace Mughals could emerge as a Powerhouse, though, and a secure west as well as holding the Suleiman Mountain range (including famous Kalat) should help him deter enemies.
649 dev, 50 income and 60 force limit all not bad. tech and ideas though. Development is always the only thing that makes Ayutthaya attractive in the region as the national ideas are garbage. The 9/11/11 tech allows him 2 idea groups, which are Administrative 4/7 and Quality 5/7. With a Morale of 3.5 and discipline of 2.5% the Land army is more cannon fodder than anything. However, Ayutthaya does sport a navy, no heavies but 15 lights and 20 galleys at 3 naval morale. The only sea where galleys are effective in in the region is the China sea, and we saw in the last session why he has this apparently, Japan. They got beaten back and lost Ainu but it seems they still want to be prepared. The race for Ming is on but the allies Tibet and Lan Xang block him off from any spoils. Recently expanded into Bengal and Delhi and now has a decent hold of the Bengal node, much better than Siam, but further Indian adventures seem blocked as well. No more room to expand, let's see how long the White Elephant will be satisfied.
Recently beat back some south east Asians and suffered a bankruptcy due to AI control but stated almost all of Japan now and made the jump onto China, getting some vassals for future conquest. The main competition seem to be the South East Asians, and defending the Chinese main land will not be as easy as Japan. Still, Japan arguably has the strongest army in Asia, even though it's "just" a force limit of 58. Kept the Uesugi ideas, which is great, and has Quality 7/7, Economic 3/7 and Offensive 3/7 while also employing a sizeably navy at 3.5 naval Morale. Let them come.
Island by Island, the small Philippine minor has grown to 531 dev with an income of 65 and a war chest of over 3000. The sleeper agent of Asia nourished for only one purpose: Dominate the seas.
It still fields a land army to its force limit of 51 but the navy is the real deal: 93 force limit, 16 heavies with more in construction, 46 light ships and 26 transports with a naval morale of 4.5. All this amplified with the Naval ideas (7/7) and Madyas ideas (5/7). Exploration ideas (7/7) enabled the Island collection and help with the naval force limit and Quality ideas (2/7) are coming soon as well, making this the strongest navy in the world right now.
*Don't mention the bankruptcies*. Joined after dying on Ottomans, Vijayanagar had previously lost a war to Bahmanis but the Bahmanis player agreed to a 1v1. This ended in a white peace because something happened and left both weakened, Vijayanagar then came back with friends and won but it still has catching up to do. 457 dev and 161 dev Vassal mean potential is there, but 8/8/12 tech, 10 corruption and 7 inflation mean its gonna take a while. 0 Ideas oof ouch owie. 2.99 Morale and 0 discipline, better use these armies for sieging and reinforcing.
#### Lan Xang
Lan Xang lost a war to Ming and then won one, while also blocking his ally Ayutthaya from Ming. Rich conquest ahead! But 316 dev and 30 income and 34 land force limit is quite smol, so only **C**. Also the war ended quite recently and it needs 15k manpower to reinforce while it has 5k in reserves, and rebels are poppin'. Allied to the mighty Madyas but still sports a navy, a questionable choice. tech and ideas could be better, but are ok, especially for Asian standards. 11/9/11, Defensive 5/7, Economic 3/7, Espionage 0/7, maybe delete as you're already behind in diplo tech. Army quality is decent though, albeit currently enjoying a 15% morale event.
After initial struggles against the Hordes, Korea had some time to rest and dabbled in colonial ventures, owning the aptly named Colonial Nation *Cuckafornia*. Now that Ming is crumbling, Korea will soon breach the 400 dev mark and the income should go over 33 as well. But that means also soon bordering unfriendly players. Tech looking ok at 12/10/11 and currently mil focus, ideas Defensive 7/7, Exploration 7/7 and Quality 3/7 means a decent army and navy, albeit both small.
A Horde with shit income, ideas and tech? Well the military is kind of still holding up despite negative discipline and being below 2.99 morale. Combined with shit territory invaders will have a hard time, as demonstrated last session. Soon it will get rid of the Horde government, enabling it to fight in its own Mountain forts! This comes at the toll of admin tech 8 though. Other tech is looking fine (8/12/12) and maybe the ideas (eco 4/7, defensive 0/7) will catch up. Also has the luxury of bordering Ming, so more conquest ahead, but also more competition as Tibet and Oirat are at war with Shun.
Let Madyas have the Philippines and the Moluccas and had to accept that Sumatra is Vijayanagari now, so kind of boxed in. But got rewarded with Malacca for its patience. Despite this little conquest still not that good in tech and ideas, with 11/11/11 and Economic 3/7, Exploration 7/7 and Quantity 4/7. This leaves Brunei with both a shitty army *and* navy but it seems all of South East Asia is allied so he is safe. He also got Taiwan colonised so he can declare on Ming now, if thats his goal. Good control over the Malacca node means that he has a decent income of 40 though, but it could be more.
Yes, Asian. Had to suffer a lot of AI control and got attacked by AI Yemen as well, but it's otherwise safe all around with allies on all his sides. As Arabia isn't one of the most hospitable regions he took to colonisation and has already claimed most of the Indian Ocean Islands as well as reaching the Cape and Australia. But it's currently reeling from the past war, still having 20 war exhaustion which puts a hurt on the income. 10/11/12 tech is ok, Exploration 7/7 and Economic 6/7 is ok, let's see what he is picking next.
Not sure this is still being played. As mentioned, was Ai controlled, broke alliances and attacked its former ally Hormuz and was winning until humans intervened in the war. It lost some shitty provinces and therefore has no war exhaustion, but a non-negligible debt of 1435.For the 31 force limit the military is still decent, thanks to the Rassid National ideas. Tech 9/10/11 and close to mil tech 12, ideas 5/7 defensive, 2/7 Humanist, someone please play this, I'm sure mods will talk about refunding Humanist ideas!
Despite owning the largest province in the game, Tibet isn't actually all that strong. but it did have to culture shift which puts a damper on development. Military might actually better than that of some other Asians, but only 277 dev and 14 income put it down here, for now. It's currently at war with Shun and borders Ming so there is definitely room to climb a few ranks. Tech 10/11/11, Ideas Defensive 7/7, Innovative 2/7, Quantity 2/7, using the estates could help here.
Highest income in the World (114) and together with their ally Hungary the 2nd highest force limit in the world (103), the PLC truly is a powerhouse. The income is actually really impressive due to the shitty trade node control, so most of it comes from Tax and production. It currently has 1 loan of 500 but that is easily paid of. It also currently fields the 2nd largest army in the world, with currently decent and once all the national ideas are unlocked impressive quality. Looking at the ideas we see that Poland opted for the "Meta" build as well, going Quality (7/7), Economic(7/7) and then Offensive (5/7). Currently also tech leader and invested the most points into development, Poland could be the strongest country in the world right now. But expansion routes are limited now, sandwiched by friendly Russia and Hungary, friendly Livonian Order on the coast, only the Swedish held German provinces would be an option. The Sejm complied a lot to make this happen. A lot of manufactories built and under construction, Poland might switch to building regiment camps soon and ride down some Mountainsides.
It seems Eastern Europe is strong when it works together, and very close behind comes Russia. It actually has more dev and higher Force limit and uglier terrain, but the idea choices make the military considerably weaker, qualitywise. It went Trade and, together with Tuscany, holds the title of Idea leader with a nice 7/7/7. The first two were Quality-Economic so the Army Quality is not that far behind. Neither is the income, 2nd highest in the world with 109 and manufactories are being built now. Thanks to the late Reformation, it could enjoy a lot of Siberian frontier with the +1/+1/+1 colony age ability and there is still some Siberia left to do. The West is mostly safe due to a neutal Sweden and allied Commonwealth, the South has Georgia and the east seems cooperative. Could use some forts though as most of the land is unprotected, the conquered hordes deleted theirs. Technology also a bit behind, 11/10/12 and Inflation still at 3.5%, but going down. The Personal Union Tver can be integrated now so that should increase income again, maybe it will have the highest income next time.
France on its own is very powerful, having some very high morale. But it suffered a series of defeats trying to push into Italy which has taken its toll, France is 1400 in debt and has 3.5% inflation. Still it has some opportunities left. It belatedly started colonising the Americas so that could keep France in line, and Castile recently rivaled it. But the situation can get worse, its ally Savoy lost the Mountain forts and France lost some other allies. 11/9/12 tech is ok, Offensive 7/7, Exploration 6/7 and Economic 4/7 is ok as well if you consider France deleted a partly filled idea group.
The main reason France suffered those setbacks. But that didn't come without a price either, Hungary currently is bankrupt! All those loans and the reliance on Gold mines means an impressive 25% inflation. But a force limit of 103 with 611 dev and a 168 vassal ready to integrate almost puts this into **A** territory. What's holding it back is the Technology. 10/9/11 and Military tech ~6 years away, that could be dangerous, but the ideas are looking good (Quality 7/7, Economic 7/7, Offensive 4/7)and the diplomatic situation makes it safe. And there is still room for expansion after the bankruptcy.
*Don't mention the Orthodox rebels*. Failing to convert to Orthodox Christianity hampered Swedens development a bit, then it said *fuck it* and went Protestant. Now there is some prosperity coming up and the income starts looking good. Swedish military is of course of high quality, morale currently low due to the -100 prestige hit but thats gonna recover, force limit 77 but recently only a glorified rebel clean up service. 518 dev and currently integrating a 187 dev vassal, 5,5% inflation going down, 10/11/12 tech, 7/7 Defensive, 7/7 Economic, 2/7 Quality means Sweden is not to be trifled with. Once the conversion is complete and the rebels dealt with it should be even more formidable.
The Other Half, going for naval and colonial dominance, though Madyas currently holds title of strongest navy. But Norway and their 2 vassals all have exploration ideas, splurging all over the New World. Rebels definitely are a problem and Money currently is as well, but Norway just took trade ideas so that should be dealt with at least. Tech 10/10/12 could be better but Norway has 399 dev, almost all of it in a highly defensible position and many subjects and a stout and strong land power ally so it is unlikely that its leaving its position here.
Started as Burgundy, through the formation lost a lot of provinces to France and now has entered the Colonial game, quite late. But it switched to Dutch ideas, definitely questionable choice, but now it also entered the naval game and can make quite a lot of money in the channel. This will only become more once the Dutch ambitions are unlocked, the Burghers pacified and they are ahead in Diplo tech again. Currently it's 11/11/12 tech and 7/7 Defensive, 6/7 Economic, 5/7 Exploration ideas, quite good. With the defeat of Cologne there also seems a bit more land available, if he so wishes. The land military also doesn't have to shy away, thanks to the high morale, but the Netherlands rack disciprine.
I'm not sure this is still played, would be a shame if not, because despite the loss of Sevilla it still has a decent income of 51, low inflation, no loans, Spanish ideas, some colonies, decent army and strong navy. it only needs to win one war against Morocco to be back in business. Tech 10/12/11, Ideas Exploration 7/7, Economic 4/7 after deleting partially filled Expansion, Quality 2/7
Almost wanted to put it into **B** but its dev is too low for that. But it's making the most out of its dev. 332 dev and 57 income, 54 force limit, 46k manpower pool and a very strong army, only lacking a bit morale but making up for it with discipline. Together with Russia idealeader with all National ideas unlocked, idea groups chosen are Quality, Economic and Offensive so the "Meta build". You wouldn't even know it went bankrupt several times as it has 0 corruption and 0 inflation. It also seems to be the cannon guy since it has more artillery than infantry, and with policy that's 20% artillery combat ability, starting to hurt with tech 13 and 16. The North seems mostly blocked by the allies Genoa and Venice but there are still some spoils in the south.
Another high efficiency guy, 320 dev and 67 income, but 7 inflation. 59 force limit and surprisingly 37% army professionalism but low morale and discipline. But thats not what Venice is for, they have a big galley navy at 3 morale, making it supreme navy in the mediterranean. Naval Doctrine is the 33% ship tradepower though, but combined with their age ability thats + 83% ship trade power! No wonder the Venice node is still so rich. Technology at 10/10/12 could be better, same for ideas. Quantity 7/7, Trade 3/7, Economic 2/7, looks like venice will be making a lot of money, buying their independence.
#### Livonian Order
*gtg pick up a girl*. You leave a Monastic order unguarded for a few minutes and it starts spawning a new heresy, smh my head. Army quality is decent though it's missing a tech, 257 dev and 38 income is pretty good, already built a lot of buildings. Now we will have to see whether it goes Protestant or Orthodox, like its former master. Probably Protestant for Kurland.
*Oh rebels gave me my country back?* After a bit of abstention, Bavaria has come back and it's looking good (For Bavaria). Almost 300 dev but only 25 income and 30 force limit, still much room for improvement. 10/11/11 tech and 2/7 Quantity, 3/7 Economic, 2/7 Quality are also leaving much to desire, but it has good allies so it will catch up. Use the estates!
You win, you lose. After succesfully sending half of Europe to their doom to defeat the Ottomans, it now lost Constantinople to Hungary, which severely crippled the income. It also lost control over the Bosphorus and is in a hopeless situation where its allies can't reach it to help. It still has some money in the bank for war but the troop quality is nowhere near its enemies'.
Got bullied into giving up Crimea for money by Poland but got a few Savoyard provinces as well as half of Sardinia in return. 126 dev, 20 income is ok, and it's at the forefront of it's enemies so stands to gain more, however it lacks the crucial protection of Hungary and is a bit behind in everything. 9/8/12 tech, 7/7 Plutocratic and trade ideas, so also going for money instead of navy build. Switched to protestantism and spawned a center of conversion in Italy, not sure how happy the other Italians are about that.
The Independent Irish. Totally not a puppet. Does what the Norwegian subjects do: colonise. Though currently it doesnt, 3 inactive colonists. 9/8/11 tech, 6/7 exploration, 4/7 expansion, only one purpose: colonise.
Back from the grave. Fully occupied by the Ottomans and bankrupt it got sucked back into the game with a little help and now holds the Caucasus region + x. The Caucasus is a cultural and religious hellhole though, so with 225 dev it only has an income of 10. Also tech 8/10/10 and ideas Defensive 4/7, Economic 2/7, a lot of catching up to do, but Mother Russia protects.
Unindependent irish, typical Northerner. Also only for colonisation.
Rekt by save edit, Ai control and war, Savoy really is not looking so good mr Franco
~~Is this even allowed, releasing a vassal to put a player on?~~ Apparently released from England, which meant shit tech and a lot of corruption, still carrying that legacy with 18 corruption. Anyway, another Norwegian coloniser. Almost became King of Poland. Will never get more than 4 colonies per region.