# Tahoe-LAFS - Nuts & Bolts Meetings
[Location](https://meet.jit.si/AccurateFiltersManipulateBefore)
[Legacy meeting notes](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/WeeklyMeeting)
[This doc](https://hackmd.io/DzedQERvRLWaaaeo-gtDhA)
[Consolidation of notes](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4104)
[IRC Group: #[e-mail]]

## Dec 17, 2024
### Attendees
- Blaise
- Flo
- Jeff
- Meejah

### Previous Items

#### CI is mostly green:
- https://github.com/LeastAuthority/tahoe-lafs/tree/3484.test-build-images
- https://github.com/LeastAuthority/tahoe-lafs/tree/4143.refresh-images-part2
-

### New Items

#### 3rd party Integrations
- Rodrigo has some scaffolding for a app using svelte.js in the repo for the sample app: https://github.com/blaisep/private_facts/blob/main/packages/src/routes/dashboard/%2Bpage.server.js

#### Writing design docs
@meejah:
- Describe the characteristics of:
- Grid
- Protocols (GBS, foolscap, both)
- storage criteria
- Introducer
- member criteria
- service discovery
- announcements
- Membrane
- Examples:
- https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/blob/master/docs/managed-grid.rst
- https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/blob/master/docs/specifications/http-storage-node-protocol.rst

Need not be an implementation guide. It could be prose or something more structured, such as:
- https://github.com/balanced/balanced-api/blob/master/features/callbacks.feature
- https://github.com/behave/behave/blob/main/features/fixture.feature
- https://github.com/balanced/balanced-api/blob/master/features/settlements.feature

## Dec 10, 2024
### Attendees
- Ben
- Blaise
- Chris
- Jeff
- Meejah
- Shane

### New Items

#### CI
- Ben has CI working everywhere
- Github
- Local
- Backport changes to CircleCI
- **Except**: Inconsistency specific to Circle CI (even in Least Authority Org), possibly resource related on circle CI's k8s config
- Trac issues
- 3484
- 4131
- 4135
- 4142
- 4143 (Updating the CI images)
- xxxx (Using the new images)
- xxxx (_Plan B_ bypassing the intermediate image build)

Note: Tahoe-lafs github admin group has 6 members.

#### Is building CI images in advance a premature optimization?
- Circle CI creates "tahoelafsci/debian:11-py3.9" and uses that image to create the build.
- It requires a periodical "click of the button" for the occasional rebuild of the CI images.
- It does not actually provide reproducible builds.
- We are not pinning images nor are we pinning wheels.
- It *may* provide some faster builds (we have not quantified)
- Reporoducibility vs (...) Currency (?)
- @blaise: We should consider a separate repo/pipeline for CI images because their revision cycle is different from Tahoe-lafs
- @meejah: there is not a lot of project or version specific code added to the docker images.
- @meejah: I don't want to run ci against a previous frozen version. I want to run CI against the current version.
- @meejah: useful to pull the latest platform, maybe pin the python.
- @ben: we can fix what we currently have (the Dockerfile infrastructure) and consider making changes separately.
- Ben will explore a PR building with the upstream images without the intermediate docker images.

#### Consider pinning Python separately from platform

- cache and pin the platform? (criteria?)
- cache and pin the Python? (criteria?)

## Dec 3, 2024
### Attendees
- Ben
- Blaise
- Flo
- Shane
- Meejah
- Chris
- Jeff

#### We need a release, soon
@hacklschorsch

#### CI failures
- @btology happy to migrate CI off CircleCI (we chose Circle for reliability, but that has changed)
- has a plan to move most of the unit tests [which currently fail on CircleCI](https://github.com/LeastAuthority/tahoe-lafs/actions/runs/12144760020/job/33864884211) over.
- Todo: Update fedora builder to fc41
- Typecheck fails on `master` https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4115
- Oracle Linux fails: https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4135
- Master branch does not build
- Integration tests do not run on master branch
- Nix pacakge build does not work
- Too Slow:https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4126)
- Cachix does not have current images, so dependencies must be built from source.
- We need Cachix token [trac](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4134)
- We need access to the Cachix org to regnerate the token
- Do we care about nix?
- If someone needs the flake for Tahoe-lafs, eg (private storage?) they will fail.
- Maybe we consider that "downstream" and people can fix it.
- PyPi: ownership for prod, but only JP has access to test.pypi
- Ubuntu builder fails https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/3949
- We build wheels for Windows, Mac OS, Debian and PyPI
- Should we decide which CI are "blockers"?
- Debian, Mac OS and Windows MUST be green
- If no one complains, then they dont block

## Nov 26, 2024
### Attendees

- Ben
- Blaise
- Flo
- Shane
- Meejah
- Chris

### New Items:

#### Tahoe Project open office hours
- Consider a standing schedule for folks to drop in with questions and pairing.
- Blaise is available to turn on the lights, start the coffee pot and arrange the chairs.
- Meejah suggests 15:00 UTC might be a good time for Europe and North America.

#### GridSync

[Standalone magic-folder binaries fail due to missing win32com.shell import](https://github.com/gridsync/gridsync/issues/707)
[PyInstaller/frozen tahoe executables fail to execute on macOS 13 due to missing libintl](https://github.com/gridsync/gridsync/issues/709)

#### User Stories for Landing Page: www.tahoe-lafs.com (and related Wiki content)
- Describe the CRUD lifecycle
- Who does the CRUD ?
- What privs do they need?
- Failure Scenarios:
- Host outages? (no response from host, page not found, ...)
- Content bugs? ()
@hacklschorsch wants :
- static landing page sounds good
- enough redirect to preserve the original trac urls https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/project/pages/redirects.html

- Wiki Pages are mostly reproducible
- Before:
- https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4095
- After:
- https://forge.lafs.eval.latfa.net/tahoe-lafs/trac/issues/4095
- NOT reproducible:
- dynamic(ish) content like Roadmap,

#### Broken CI updates

- CircleCI keeps asking for an SSH key in some fork or PR!?
- Flo thinks he has fixed most of CI issue,
- but there is still a flaky systemtest which fails from time to time
- Ben is trying to reproduce this flay part with GH actions

- Refactor (big) tests, see https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4078 and then https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/pull/1354
- Tracebacks get elided through Twisted, tracebacks get created at the deferred, yet we want them created from where they are deferred. ( [because](https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/pull/1354/files#r1444822971) )
- @meejah: "The real problem may be that we're shutting it down too many times" and it does things after it has been stopped (eg. Add shares called after we deleted Shares)
- Differing seeds for random number generators can result in strange behaviour so @Chris points out that we can force `PYTHONHASHSEED=1` and force consistency.

#### FOSDEM 2025

- Flo and Ben would like to present some works (e.g.: Mobile, Tracker, Website),

## Nov 19, 2024
### Attendees

- Blaise
- Rodrigo
- Meejah
- Chris
- Jeff
- @hacklschorsch
- Shane

### New Items:

#### User stories for ticketing system
Meejah and Blaise have paired on the "admin" side user stories (e.g.: "as an admin, I do not expect to require access to the underlying host" eg. system upgrade, system users, etc.)

#### SupaWiki and Tahoe for private content.

- Describe the threat model. Be clear on the expectations resulting from the specific deployment mode.
For example, with Desktop apps there is "Trust on every use" so it is "less secure" than locally installed code.

@rodrigo explained that it is possible to conserve the principles in Tahoe. He had to read a lot to understand where the edges are and what he would need to implement in order to take advantage of the security model.

@meejah: Let's pretend we have an available grid. Where would we keep the capability string, how would a patient expose data to the doctor?
- Prefer the term "exposure" over trust. There is no trust in tahoe, just exposure.

@Rodrigoplp: we dont' yet have specific constraints, because we're exploring an example (the private medical facts)
- The work that needs to be done is to make clear where the exposure begins.
- If the system requires many nuanced decisions, then it will be used by experts
- If you need to access simple users, then they need apps that have few dials and levers

@chris: tahoe doesn't have a security guarantee beyond the capability string, so sharing and recovery would need to be addressed by an external tool.

@meejah: well, there is a `membrane` cap that provides a short lived string. Tahoe has been conservative about claims, which is why there is no delete key.

*Questions*
- if an app can add a layer of access control, *then* it can facilitate sharing, revocation and recovery?
- should we add glossary entries for terms like `exposure` vs `trust`

### Todos:
- Explicit doc for the "security model" (inclusive of:
- https://tahoe-lafs.readthedocs.io/en/latest/architecture.html#security
- https://tahoe-lafs.readthedocs.io/en/latest/about-tahoe.html#what-is-provider-independent-security (ie. The "provider-independent security" doc)
- Expand glossary entries to include security concerns (eg. "treat capability strings as secrets", or the "secure domain is where the cap string is in the clear")
- Add Glossary entries:
- exposure
- trust
- sharing
- revocation
- recovery
- membrane
- macaroon

#### Broken CI

@hacklschorsch : the tests seem to fail around HTTP. Foolscap seems to work but HTTP will pass and then fail.
https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/pull/1381#issuecomment-2444698978
(maybe improve setup and teardown? see: allmydata.test.test_system.HTTPSystemTest )

Ben noticed that there are less failures on the PAID circle CI account?!
Ben will try to verify this using the LA fork:
https://github.com/LeastAuthority/tahoe-lafs/tree/master, which now fails on CircleCI because of this ghost SSH key issue.

### Beware logging
There are several log sources and they are joined (manually) using timestamps :frowning:
- Eliot (`eliot tree`, `eliot prettyprint`)
- Twisted
- Python logger

#### FOSDEM 25 in Bruxelles ?
- Should we present a talk here?

## Nov 12, 2024
### Attendees

- Ben
- hacklschorsch
- Jeff
- Rodrigo
- Shane
- Blaise (late)

### New Items:

#### SupaWiki https://supawiki.com/
Rodrigo joined and presented the idea to record personal data in a safe/private wiki.

Update from blaise, limited availability during mourning:

Public Repo for the integration app is: https://github.com/blaisep/private_facts
@rodrigoplp is blasting ahead with integration into supawiki.com

#### Mobile Tahoe-LFS mobile app in Haskell
Good news, a few PRs have been merged: 11, 14, 15, 17, 19, 20 and 21:
https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs-mobile/-/merge_requests/?scope=all&state=merged

#### User stories for Tahoe-LAFS end-users:
Jeff and Blaise are working on describing how Tahoe-LAFS works.
Leading to a sequence diagram (WiP):
https://github.com/blaisep/private_facts/blob/main/docs/source/upload_content.puml

#### MoveOffTrac
- Pairing meeting on user stories postponed.
- Possible licensing issue discussed with Codeberg. In short, if this is dual-licenced project, it should not be an issue.
- The problem could come from [TGPPL](https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/blob/master/COPYING.TGPPL.rst) and CodeBerg [policy](https://docs.codeberg.org/getting-started/faq/#can-i-host-software-and-resources-without-a-free-and-open-source-software-license%3F)
- Ben needs more info from Meejah and Pete to try to get a written approval from Codeberg.
- As a reminder: this is not a blocker, until we decide to move the code from GH to CodeBerg (not in scope so far).

#### CircleCI
- Ben is working on the SSH ghost key issue
- More info in [#4098](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4098#comment:17)
- The problem may be fixed in 2 ways:
1. gaining admin access (using a temporary GH user) to add and remove an ssh key (hopefully cleaning the dirt in the pipes)
2. forcing https checkout using a custom step (PR in progress)
- Rodrigo said it may be worthed to consider alternatives to CircleCI, like an independent version of GitHub Actions.
- As a reminder: the CI is already half GH, half CircleCI. But if GH is doing better, both look vendor locking.
- Some steps have been made in the MoveOffTrac to test Gitea act runner, which is a replacement for GitHub actions: https://code.lafs.eval.latfa.net/tahoe-lafs/web-landing-page/src/branch/main/.gitea/workflows/jekyll.yaml

#### Other links:
https://yopass.se/ (Maybe uses Tahoe?)
https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/blob/master/COPYING.TGPPL.rst

---

## Nov 05, 2024
### Attendees

- Ben
- Blaise
- Chris
- hacklschorsch
- Jeff
- Meejah
- Shane

### New Items:

#### Project Adoption
The creator of [SupaWiki](https://supawiki.com) is interested in being able to create and read private objects using Tahoe.

@blaisep : created a fresh repo to hold code for the Tahoe-specific demo app, inspired by the meetup-health tracker: [private_facts](https://github.com/blaisep/private_facts). Happy to add collaborators.

### Ongoing

#### Trac migration with keywords
[PR](https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/trac2gitea/pull/31) in progress for trac2gitea to migrate keywords as labels (total = 912 w/ some dupplicates).

Let's meet offline to review https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4095 and memorialize a decision process.
- summarize the user scenarios ([stories](https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/MoveOffTrac/blob/main/docs/UserStories.md))
- clarify the constraints and requirements
- clarify the scope of each milestone (eg. describe structure of an issue, choose. a target pla)

#### CircleCI
- Making progress in related repositories (e.g.: ZKAPAuthorizer) and learning for Tahoe-LAFS
- ssh key error seen in many projects, inluding Tahoe-LAFS: WiP to understand/avoid it
- Too much permissions by default

#### RClone
- https://forum.rclone.org/t/tahoe-lafs-backend/6625
- Flo: Very interesting! The REST API looks perfect for rclone - there are many rclone backends which work in a very similar way so that would be easy for rclone to consume.

#### Python packaging
- Is there a more "standard way" of packaging Python (Ben found it heterogeneous)?
- Blaise and Jeff are investigation [UV](https://github.com/astral-sh/uv): promessing, but?
- Tahoe-LAFS still uses [Makefile](https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/magic-folder/blob/main/Makefile)!
- Note: Tahoe-LAFS packages are not deployed to PyPi from CI
- BTW: PyPi is about to drop signature w/o alternative
- Meejah still publishes signatures for other projects
- See https://github.com/meejah/pypiratzzi/

---

## Oct 29, 2024
### Attendees

- Ben
- Blaise
- Chris
- hacklschorsch
- Pete
- Jeff
- Meejah
- Shane

### New Items:

#### CodeBerg has some retrictions about the license
- https://codeberg.org/Codeberg/org/src/branch/main/TermsOfUse.md#2-allowed-content-usage
- Re-licensing does not look like an option for Tahoe-LAFS (TGPPL)
- This is a cons, but there are other Forgejo providers

#### Magic-grid installation is fixed (Meejah)
A simple typo in `pyproject.toml` resulted in ugly traceback. https://paste.ofcode.org/wapHcem8hXBVgigJ8LQUFg

#### Explosion of interest in the Health app
Front end developers from the Nivenly community (folks behind https://hachyderm.io ) are excited about a health tracker with provider-independent privacy.

#### Jeff working on 1101
Writing tests for a CLI improvement (handling the `--verbose` option for commands that don't explicitly support it). @meejah suggests starting with `tahoe ls` because it lacks `--verbose` and is very simple.
- The Twisted CLI test infrastructure is weak.
- The way the Twisted handles cmd args is somewhat magical.
- Ideally, we re-write the CLI with `click` ... :santa:

#### Learning to run individual tests:

[tox.ini](https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/blob/master/tox.ini#L76) has most of the details. In general, most of the tests use Twisted's trial module. Use `python -m twisted.trial --help`

#### Help is on the way for CI.

B3n reports that there is approval for applying some of his time to work on CI.

#### something about SEEDS proposal
??

#### Maybe release a new Magic-Folder
- conflict-resolution branch may be messy.
- Chris might benefit for grid-sync
- The Tahoe client UI for Magic Folder is ... not smooth because it shows the various levels and metadata..

#### Case Study: Bootstrap WireGuard using magic wormhole
- One time use of magic wormhole to set up or add a wireGuard node. @meejah

#### trac2gitea keywords
- https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/trac2gitea/issues/28
- ticket keywords would generate 1846 new labels
- Meejah suggested to look at https://github.com/twisted/twisted which had similar concern (e.g: #11563)

### Related links:

[STUN tunneling](https://github.com/magic-wormhole/magic-wormhole/issues/6#issuecomment-147854595)

## Oct 22, 2024
### Attendees

- Blaise
- Chris
- hacklschorsch
- Meejah

### New Items:
#### Debian build
Is there a set of tools we can use to validate our Debian builds?
#### Decision: let's avoid including Debian-specific dependencies in upstream.

#### Python 3.13
Jeff noticed a weird error with 3.13.rc2: https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4118#comment:4
Chris is checking compatiblity. 3.13 deprecated `cgi` module and there are dependencies on it.
#### Decision: We should move cgi classes to use the Twisted APIs

#### Testing NAT with pytest and libvirt Virtual Networking
@meejah : testing NAT with pytest is a headache
@blaisep : consider one of the networking emulation libraries like [pygmni](https://karneliuk.com/2021/08/pygnmi-10-rapid-and-reliable-network-testing-with-pytest-pygnmi-and-openconfig/)
@chris : `headscale` is a open source tailscale/wireguard to VPN all-the-things (orthogonal, but interesting)
https://archive.fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/goheadscale/

---

## Oct 15, 2024
### Attendees

- Blaise
- B3n
- Meejah
- Jeff
- Chris

### random notes

- some discussion of security etc around Terraform-managed Gandi DNS
- some meta-discussion of privacy of data for some use-cases
- distributed forgejo (etc) PRs mentioned, discussed a bit
- blocker: CI not working https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/pull/1377
- Contributor/Developer [step-by-step guide](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4118)
- It would be good to have a good solution for "oops, I merged the wrong commit" scenario. [trac](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4124#ticket)
- Twisted project used https://github.com/chevah/trac-to-github to migrate from trac to github

#### Decisions:
- convert legacy keywords to static labels
- link to stored queries that contributors can reuse.
- Become independent of [CircleCI](https://sr.ht/~meejah/magic-grid/) is an aspiration. Some brave soul should do it.
- we'll need CircleCI until we can make CI run on the three platforms: Linux, Windows, Mac.
- Look at using [magic grid](https://sr.ht/~meejah/magic-grid/) to automate the tutorials

### [Issue Tracking](https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/MoveOffTrac/blob/main/docs/UserStories.md)
@b3n and @blaisep: Writing the [user stories](https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/MoveOffTrac/blob/main/docs/UserStories.md) for issue tracking revealed some scenarios we had not considered. The team should discuss the alternative and consequences.
We learned:
- There are additional, distinct, roles with associated privileges and activities.
- Many issues are associated with each other using the free text `keywords` feature, which is not covered by the current migration.
- Ticket Discovery: The View Ticket page has many pre-defined queries which have no direct counterpart outside of trac.

### Related links:
- [Git Federation](https://drewdevault.com/2018/07/23/Git-is-already-distributed.html)
- [Git over ActivityPub](https://forgefed.org/)

### Gaps in the [Contributor guides](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4118)
A new contributor has no clear path to a usable PR. The instructions assume familiarity with the project. For example:
- A contributor cannot find related tickets (WIP, previous solutions, dependencies, @meejah's tutorial automation ticket)
- How to collaborate on tickets that relate to each other?
- CI/CD: Which commands build the project?
- ...It happens that Tox is the the entry point to CI (meejah: not really, but yes tox can run _some_ of the different environments a contributor would want)
- When to use the various Tox targets?
- The instructions for a PR should include everything that a contributor needs for sucessful review (ie. reviewer should not have to run additional tests). (meejah: current best effort here is probably https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/blob/master/CONTRIBUTORS.rst)

### QUESTIONS: current contributor user stories
- As a current contributor, when you want to find a ticket in Trac, do you:
- Use a prepared query on the [View Ticket](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/ViewTickets) page?
- Use the Custom query form?
- Follow links inside an existing issue?

---

## Oct 8, 2024
### Attendees

- Blaise
- B3n
- Chris
- hacklschorsch
- ccx
- Jeffhimself

### New Items

Include tests in the description of an issue.
- https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/2050#comment:7

Proposed Docs config changes
- create
- docs/test (to store the docs-specific tests)
- docs/source (to restrict Sphinx to the the docs content, exclude tests, etc.)
- add sys.path to docs/source/conf.py (to find the source directory)
- Makefile (run Sphinx against the source directory)
- Makefile doc-testing (add target for `make doc-testing`)

#### The step-by-step Developer Guide
A failing test(s) for being ready to
- build docs (`tox -e docs` ?)
- run the tests?
- submit a PR (nothing broken that the author couldnt' check themselves)
- build a release

#### Trac migration Developer Experience
- @ccx Search? Associating trac issues to a feature is a PITA (labels, components are migrated)
- @chris: developers should be able to see CI results; what is the integration of issue/commit/PR
- @blaisep : reorder commits to match their tests.
- Codeberg CI https://codeberg.org/Codeberg-CI/woodpecker

### Questions
- How does tox know about the fixtures?
- setup.py install returns:
`error: The 'zope-interface>=5' distribution was not found and is required by Twisted, twisted
` (and I'm not supposed to run setup.py)

---

## Oct 1, 2024
### Attendees

- Blaise
- B3n
- Chris
- hacklschorsch
- Jeffhimself
- Meejah
- Pete

### New Items:

- Release Checklist, simple PR edition?
- Public Grid?
- Public mailbox server? (MagicFolder)
- Fowl and Dilation mentioned as unannounced apps related to file transfers

#### Trac Migration docs
- WIP https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/MoveOffTrac/tree/docs-update-24w40/docs
- Docs tickets will serve as the initial spike to test new user (Blaisep) creation.
- User Account management has some cases we want to excercise (forgot password, account confirmation, etc)
- Redirecting legacy URLs to the new issue tracker.

### Prior Items:

- Debian packaging in progress (@hacklschorsch will ask Debian Tahoe-LAFS maintainer about status, if we can help, and whether/what dependencies are currently missing in Debian)
- fixed cryptography library issue https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4100#no1

#### Dependency management

- "Tahoe is an app, so we shouldn't pin dependencies" @pete

#### related projects
- "Git with you": Peer to Peer git colab (not via github) using pairon (?)
- [Dulwich](https://www.dulwich.io/docs/#getting-started) is a python implementation of git
- https://meejah.ca/blog/wizard-gardens-vision
- [Copybin](https://carml.readthedocs.io/en/latest/command-copybin.html), but private
- https://magic-folder.readthedocs.io/en/latest/invites.html#invites
- Brian's STUN server (?)
- @pete mentioned research on [OCAP](https://github.com/ocapn/ocapn)s over [CRDT](https://github.com/alangibson/awesome-crdt)s
- exposing ssh using [Inlets sshmux](https://inlets.dev/blog/2024/02/05/access-all-your-ssh-servers-with-sshmux.html)
- https://www.wireguard.com/
- [ZCAP](https://w3c-ccg.github.io/zcap-spec/) is separate from Tahoe. [Github]()

---

## Sep 24, 2024
### Attendees

- Blaise
- B3n
- Chris
- hacklschorsch
- Jeffhimself
- Meejah
- Pete

### New Items:

- The new tutorials and docs will default to systemd in examples for running as a service.
- We'll start migrating issues. @b3n will provide a summarized plan next week. If necessary, we'll migrate to a self-hosted forgejo instanc.

#### Migration: User Management topics
- Account creation flow
- Auto-registration OFF,
- User Creation
- Auto create if Github auth'd
- Manual
- Forgotten password flow (eg. Github IdP is down)

#### Tahoe-S3
- A client which maps the finger tree into S3 numbers (and deal with S3 size limits)
- Finger tree used to handle failure scenarios
- Immutables only
- Doesn't create the shares
- Doesn't replace the native Tahoe storage server
- A challenge to implement in Haskell because it requires intimate knowledge of Tahoe internals, REST and Foolscap APIs

#### ADR: Tech stack decisions
- Whither Haskell?
- How much functionality is already implemented?
- Haskell is a good high-level language.
- Whither Rust?
- If we build *low-level* components in Rust, there's opportunity for re-use.
- Rust has lots of tooling

#### Improving Immutables
- Single block writers are the problem (@ccx)
- blockless multi-writer implementation is the answer

Speaking of block storage, @blaisep wonders if [k8s longhorn](https://longhorn.io/docs/1.7.1/references/longhorn-client-python/) integration may be a crowd pleaser.

## TILs

- Duplicity has a backend option [`--tahoe`](https://fossies.org/linux/duplicity/duplicity/backends/tahoebackend.py)
- Python pre-compiled for [iOS](https://github.com/PyO3/maturin/issues/1742#issuecomment-1686219705), courtesy of [maturin](https://www.maturin.rs/tutorial)
- Room for improvement in describing our goals, roadmap milestones, features, etc. ("implement Tahoe-S3" vs "have a phone app")

---

## Sep 17, 2024
### Attendees

- Blaise
- B3n
- Pete

### New Items:

#### Trac migration
The time has come. @b3n requests that next week we set in motion the steps to leave trac and use .... something else. (Eventually, we may use GitHub, but before we can migrate to GitHub we need to clean up the issue data anyway).

#### Provisioning and configuration management
On a ddifferent note, most of the meeting was a discussion comparing provisioning and config management tools. @pete has a project where he needs to produce packaged images for various distributions. Ultimately, the images will run containerized applications.
This is an area with too many choices.

Some of the resources that came up in the discussion may be interesting to others:
- [DeBock's Ansible Roles](https://robertdebock.nl/ansible.html#roles). These are tested, [using molecule](https://ansible.readthedocs.io/projects/molecule/), against several Linux distos and versions.
- [Packer](https://www.packer.io/) from HashiCorp, takes the "images as code" approach. Concerns about a terraform-style licensing issue came up.
- [Distrobox](https://distrobox.it/) to create containers with custom configurations.
- [Toolbx](https://containertoolbx.org/) is a wrapper for [podman](https://docs.podman.io/en/latest/) and can be considered as a simpler [alternative to distrobox](https://discussion.fedoraproject.org/t/thread-about-switching-to-distrobox/89151/18?page=2)
- Finally, the consensus is to create a `justfile` using [Just](https://just.systems/man/en/) to control the tasks and invoke tools like packer and ansible when necessary. Also, consider the trick that the [Fedora Atomic Desktop](https://getaurora.dev/) use to alias `ujust` to point to [admin-provided tools](https://universal-blue.discourse.group/t/just-reorganization-part-1-released/417#automation-and-scripting-3).
- We agreed that [dagger engine](https://docs.dagger.io/quickstart/#topics) would be useful for interacting with the running containers, but this was out of scope.

---

## Sep 10, 2024
### Attendees

- Blaise
- hacklschorsch
- Chris
- Ccx

### Step-by-step approach to getting started
Instead of [showing everything at once](https://imgflip.com/i/930yve), build up the service one feature at a time. @blaisep has Incoming PR for https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4103

### Express modularity using C4 notation for the diagrams
- layers of abstraction Context, Container, Component, Code
- [PlantUML includes](https://crashedmind.github.io/PlantUMLHitchhikersGuide/) C4 in the std lib
- https://crashedmind.github.io/PlantUMLHitchhikersGuide/C4/C4Stdlib.html

### Describing Tahoe to local user groups
As prep for presenting to larger conferences
@blaisep offers to do user group talks (later: conference presentations)
- Historical context (eg. why did they create SDK first? Surveillance capitalism, enshitification, etc.)
- Use case examples (creating examples relevant to end users)
- The "dumb pipe scenario" (provider-independent security), use cloud storage for personal data.
- Storage only is low value

#### Challenges
Either gaps in functionality or gaps in understanding
- Describing the security boundaries (eg.vs corp walled gardens)
- Key management, rotattion, revocation
- The "dumb pipe scenario" (provider-independent security), use cloud storage for personal data.
- No generic writer( @ccx ) can't write everything to/from everywhere.

#### Comparisons
Describing Tahoe in terms of something they already know.
- Nostr: @chris has written some [Nostr](https://nostr.org/) bots. It's not a dumb pipe in a security sense. It's meant to be censorship-resistance, not confidentiality. More of a brute force approach vs lots of cryptography. @hacklschorsch liked the way the Nostr delivery model (push data to your favorite relay...) is presented.
Flo said NIP-104 will be a big improvement for private messaging
https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/1427

- IPFS: similar layer of abstraction. More client implementations. Scales differently? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37750529
- Signal: but for storage ( _can Signal self host?_ ) The reference implementation is a useful app, SDKs, Open protocol, ubiquitous.
- Syncthing: (peer-to-peer) but with decentralization and capabilities (@ccx)

---

## Sep 3, 2024
### Attendees

- b3n
- Blaise
- hacklschorsch
- Meejah
- Ccx

## Prior Items

- Glossary items

- Debian packaging maybe delayed because `pycddl` has never been packaged for Debian. We might make it in by the end of the year. @hacklschorsch
- (we should check if any of our other dependencies have never been packaged for Debian @meejah)

- Trac migration (see: https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/MoveOffTrac#ProsandConsofself-hostedvsSaaS) looking at the results of migration, @b3n noticed a number of issues with author attribution and broken reference links.
- @b3n suggests that we consider a transition period where we run selfhosted and collaborate on the issues we care to migrate. (eg. the user creation needs to be automatic, yet if we set it to auto, then we also get junk accounts created) We can choose a threshold of noise and migrate or wait until it is perfect.
- "Our trac instance has defferred maintenance and accummulated cruft over the years. The community wants to retain the option to selfhost, even if we choose not to. So if it makes sense to self host, then we can exercise that option." @meejah

- @hacklschorsch: Can we lower the Tahoe-LAFS merge process turnaround time?
- Optimistic Merging / other ideas for the Tahoe-LAFS GitHub repo? to make contributing leaner/more fun
- meejah: A PR that is green and has approvals is already merged quickly now. If not, write on IRC
- Currently, meejah is the only active committer in Tahoe-LAFS. The committers agree it would be good to have more committers, but it's not an easy task. Blaise nominates ccx, but ccx does not have time right now.

## New items

- Veilid: is it real, where are the intersections?

@ccx : it's a library which bundles a number of p2p protocols. No existing app yet.

@meejah : played with ethersync and he made it do a thing. It's early and doesn't do anything yet. For instance, no one would install MagicWormhole if they couldn't do file sharing.

### Making it easier to develop on Tahoe
Separation of concerns, breaking tahoe into modules would be a good next move. @ccx (@blaise start a trac issue?)

---

## August 27, 2024
### Attendees

- b3n
- Chris
- hacklschorsch
- Meejah
- Pete

### Updates

- Flo
- LA wants to hire a senior Haskeller to work on LAFS
- iOS: Obsidian is still investigating the "illegal instruction" compiler/linker issue
- Wrote some eMails back and forth with the Debian Tahoe-LAFS maintainer: Would be great if 1.20 would be clean of Python 2 code so it can be included in Debian again. Also need to look at Debian Trixie code freeze date
- Works with Blaise on Tahoe-LAFS docs
- ... and would like to pair more in general

- Chris
- published a Rust crate for LAFS: https://crates.io/crates/lafs
source repo: https://github.com/crwood/lafs
- Local and much faster than the Python equivalent (.25s instead of 24s on Chris' machine)
- It comes with Python bindings

- b3n
- Codeberg importing issue acknowledged by them
- Would like to discuss self-host vs. SaaS for the upcoming GitTea with Meejah

- Meejah
- Magic Wormhole protocol work
- FOWL Policy & Permissions API mostly done, soon to be merged & released.
- [Pear-On](https://sr.ht/~meejah/pear-on/) should work ATM - testers welcome

## Previous items

@blaisep Now owns [17 trac tickets from the backlog](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/query?owner=blaisep&status=assigned&status=new&status=reopened&id=&keywords=~&reporter=~&col=id&col=summary&col=keywords&col=reporter&col=status&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&col=milestone&col=changetime&desc=1&order=id) which are addressed in this month's effort to produce the getting started kit (docs and Artifacts)

## New Items

- Trac [#4103](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4103#ticket) is a running summary of the items related to the Getting started guide.
- Trac [4102](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4102#ticket) describes a workaround for a problem with one of the transitive dependencies (`eliotutils.py`).
- @blaisep has limited availability until Sep 30 2024

---

## August 20, 2024
### Attendees

Blaise
b3n
ccx
Chris
hacklschorsch

## Previous items

### WTF Circle CI?
* Is it broken? Maybe drop it?
* Do we have much logic in the Circle CI?
* It might be tests failing, rather than a systemic fail (credentials, dependencies, etc)
* "AMP server"? (twisted RPC framework) @ccx
* * https://app.circleci.com/pipelines/github/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/4958/workflows/d16324ae-293d-45c8-ba97-6ac39ef4cfc4
* https://app.circleci.com/pipelines/github/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/4958/workflows/d16324ae-293d-45c8-ba97-6ac39ef4cfc4/jobs/86344

### Towards a portable CI
* keep logic in the repo
* avoid huge Nix dependency (or maybe build a weekly Nix image)
* https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/ci/ci_cd_for_external_repos/github_integration.html

### Describe the build process
* add prose in the dev guide to the files in the repo describing the build (@blaise)
* update the release checklist: https://tahoe-lafs.readthedocs.io/en/latest/release-checklist.html

### Mutables, Service of Happiness
* @blaise asked where we were at with mutables...
* using mutables as single writers (eg. Tahoe backup)
* It's a big thing, eventually replace with a proper design for a multi-writer primitive
* For now, stick with readonly or Magic Folder for examples and getting started guide.
* > Mutables are not just even single-writer safe because partitions can cause rollbacks. Shouldn't be super common but it's still real world error case. @ccx

### [MoveOffTrac](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/MoveOffTrac) - [#4095](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/ticket/4095)
* Trac dump from last month has been migrated on the self-hosted Forgejo [instance](https://forge.lafs.eval.latfa.net/tahoe-lafs/trac-2024-07-25).
* Working on user mapping: trying to figure how to link trac users to Gitea/Forgejo users, with a mapping to the Github user if different!
* New Forgejo instance (copy/paste from Gitea) to be closer to Codeberg: https://forge.lafs.eval.latfa.net/tahoe-lafs/
* Testing migration to Codeberg with pagination bug (workaround), performance issue (deadlock error) and user mapping (unlikely possible)
* Keyoxide.org may help us to link all those account!?

## New Items

* Blaisep has trac !!!
* TIL: Trac use "htdigest" (@meejah "i'll put a note in ~trac")

---

## August 13, 2024
### Attendees

Blaise
b3n
ccx
Chris
hacklschorsch
Pete

## Previous items

- Blaise needs a trac account to CRUD issues, for docs, etc.
- GitTea self register results in many spam accounts @b3n
- We have users on Trac and users on GitHub, sometimes the names are different. @b3n
- Trac Migration Plan [WIP](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/MoveOffTrac)
- migrated Trac eval instance (https://code.lafs.eval.latfa.net/tahoe-lafs/trac-2024-05-23/issues)

## New
- Meejah might not have admin to [github.com/tahoe-lafs](https://github.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs/pull/1370) but so far that isn't yet a problem (eg. if Circle CI creds need updating.) @blaisep
- Consider using Google, GitHub auth for auto register CodeBerg accounts
- Consider upgrading/self hosting Trac instance (maybe it's not so bad after all)
- Could we make trac readonly and do new work on the ["demo" instance](https://www.lafs.eval.latfa.net/) instance?

### Migrating Issues: Goals and Constraints
- Anything off of track is better
- Github Issues are accessible, but there is risk of lock-in, enshitification
- Gitea/Forgejo/CodeBerg is future-proof (no lock-in)
- Inconsistent tribal knowledge about decisions made last year @blaisep et al.

---

## August 6, 2024
### Attendees

Blaise
b3n
Chris
ccx
hacklschorsch
meejah
Pete

Thought leaders:
Amber O'Hearn (not so much)
Larry Lessig
Brewster Kahle
Christine_Lemmer-Webber (spritely)

New Items:

Pete's foundation doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MpFUUB9sX-SA6rsHpq9ZkIhrnZaG3zwzI6KJ9I0VAgE/edit

## Comparables

* https://spritely.institute/about/
* https://ocapn.org/
* https://darkcrystal.pw/ (meejah)
* ISRG https://www.abetterinternet.org/
* https://divviup.org/
* https://sans-io.readthedocs.io/

### Mission statements

"Infrastructure for Libre, gratis, private, intentional composability and sharing " @Blaise , @meejah

Device introduction @meejah

"social infrastructure tools (sharing and composability to support differrent social structures and relationships)"
Bootstrap social relations, dependency maps.
@Chris

secure sharing with least privilege (zero trust?) @ccx
(Higher resolution, more ephemeral than app-level privs)
https://roy.marples.name/blog/posts/capsicum_vs_pledge_final_thoughts

Discoverable, "~~decentralized~~" (Autonomous?) / disconnected in nature (eg. TLS without the PKI) @Pete
Provider independent

### Community Survey

@Chris: Maybe do a poll "Should we build a Library or an application?" Right now it's the worst of both worlds. Maybe we could explore where we could get more bang; decompose into smaller building blocks may be better.
eg, decouple wire protocol from the U I.
https://sans-io.readthedocs.io/ @Pete

Who is the audience? grandmas with photosharing? Political activists? crypto bros?

---

## July 30, 2024
### Attendees

Blaise
hacklschorsch
b3n
Chris
Pete
ccx

## Highlights:
* Project governance structure

## Agenda

### Previous topics:

* Docs PR in progress

## New Topics:
* A proposal for a governance structure (Pete)

### An endowment and governance structure

* Align the Tahoe mission with the right institutional structure.
* Similar cases:
* The [Veillid Foundation](https://veilid.org/about-us/) is a very close analog.
* https://www.djangoproject.com/foundation/
* https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/who-we-are/
* https://www.abetterinternet.org/documents/2023-ISRG-Annual-Report.pdf
* https://www.abetterinternet.org/about/
* https://matrix.org/foundation/about/
* Fund some dedicated project support

### Who is the community?
* Board members
* What are the activities?
* Intellectual property portfolio (trademarks, copyrights, patents)?

### Who is NOT the community?
Where has the project stalled and why?
Why do people drop in, get frustrated, and leave?
What are the blockers for adoption and how can we overcome them.

### Tahoe public resources; what could we build next?
* Public test grid ?
* ZCap servers ?

#### Other options for funding services

* https://docs.opencollective.foundation/how-it-works/fees

#### Dependent projects
GridSync (golang) ?
Magic Wormhole ?

#### Dependencies
* Twisted
* Mutables
* Python https://meta.pycqa.org/introduction.html

---

## July 23, 2024

### Attendees

Blaise
hacklschorsch
Meejah
b3n
Chris
ccx

## Highlights:
* Mutables would be a good thing for the Foundation to fund.
* The goal of [GBS](https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/gbs-downloader) is to replace foolscap. Not there yet. (sucks to require a node online)
* Create project for client filesystem

## Agenda

### Previous topics:

Meejah:
* Trac disk space restored
* Granted admin privs

hacklschorsch:
Mobile LAFS [Wiki page](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/TahoeLAFSMobile) with draft description of Features and Scope.

B3n:
Next, Trac migration path (DNS, )
Codeberg bug

### New topics:
* B3n: Prepare Trac migration operating instructions (DNS settings, etc)
* B3n: Help Meejah create Trac account (for Blaise).
* Decision: Let's try to make the single mobile code base work (hacklschorsch)
* Deep integration with the OS is not MVP (hacklschorsch)
* [Gitlab milestones](https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs-mobile/-/milestones/7#tab-issues) don't have the OS integration yet.(ccx)
* Create FUSE module for the dev environment (ccx)

## Notes:

Chris:
* [Porting Tahoe hashlib](https://github.com/crwood/deterministic-keygen/issues/5) to Rust and found an issue:
* To do a restore with user supplied keys, if a directory is already created we get an uncoordinated error. Possible solution is to derive the cap locally.
* Curating a common set of test vectors

#### Restore scenarios
Todo: write up a description, describing permuted scenarios (Meejah, Chris)
(We need better words to describe the operations and events)

Four scenarios:
* Client failed, grid is fine
* Grid loses nodes
* Grid loses partial data
* Grid loses all data

#### Mutables
* Don't do service happiness (ccx's complaint)

Can't detect all the restore scenarios. Sometimes all the shares end up on one server :frowning:
What is the meaning of Happiness? Happiness is just a number (Meejah)

#### Mobile
* Need to write up the description in [Wiki page](https://tahoe-lafs.org/trac/tahoe-lafs/wiki/TahoeLAFSMobile)
* We need to describe how much of the functionality
* Foolscap requires a node online, [GBS](https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/gbs-downloader) does not
* "User defined grid" ? (ccx)
* What if we had a gridsync client (b3n)
* Deep integration with the OS is not MVP (hacklschorsch)
* Obsidian has something called `backend` which is different.
* [Obelisk overrides](https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs-mobile/-/blob/main/obelisk/haskell-overrides.nix?ref_type=heads)
* Let's have good interface definitions (ccx)
* [Gitlab repo](https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-great-black-swamp) Code

#### File system browser? (ccx)
* Can we use the native [mobile libraries](https://emanual.github.io/Android-docs/guide/topics/providers/document-provider.html)?
* How much do we need in the GUI?
* (https://gitlab.com/tahoe-lafs/tahoe-lafs-mobile/-/blob/main/obelisk/haskell-overrides.nix?ref_type=heads)

#### Create project: Investigate FUSE File System Support (ccx)
* Read/Only native client
* Read/Only magic folder
* Read/Write Magic Folder
* Built on top of GBS downloader

---