# KiPiPi Kup Conv We follow all/most conventions of <https://hackmd.io/Ui6LXAK3TdC7AKSDcN20PQ> ## Overruled/clarified/extra conventions ### PTD Alice does *not* have PTD if either: - A) Players have only taken Urgent Actions since her chop was drawn and they see that there's an Okay Clue to give - B) The player who last took a non-Urgent Action saw a Necessary Clue to give and that giving it would not force a useful discard Urgent Action: - Playing with 2+ plays - Playing a card into a known delayed playable card - Giving a Necessary Clue that the next unloaded player couldn't give - Alice giving Cathy and Donald both plays on the first turn so that Bob can clue her hand - Giving the first clue in a two-clue lock sequence - Playing the first card into a playful positional - Playing into an Ejection+ Okay Clue: - Giving a play/fix to a loaded player - Bob Locking a player whose hand is all useful from the perspective of Alice - Includes starting a two-clue lock sequence on that player - Giving a safe action to a player whose chop was drawn after the line was planned, even if the chop is trash - For example - Bob: y1 y3 r4 x - Cathy: r5 x x x - Donald y2 r3 x x - Alice can finesse y1 + y2 knowing that Cathy will at least clue red to Bob, even if Bob draws trash. Necessary Clue: - Giving the first safe action to a player with a useful card riding - Useful from the perspective of the last player who took a non-Urgent Action - Question (Floris): do we also want this to hold if that player has a clued card matching the riding useful card? - Yes - Saving a riding 2 or critical - Giving the first play to a player who would otherwise be at 8 clues - Giving a finesse even if it only gets cards from loaded players (otherwise it will take two clues later) - NOT NECESSARY: Giving a loaded ref clue that touches slot 1 because it will be unavailable after a draw - NOT NECESSARY: Giving a loaded play clue that will be unavailable after a draw ### Preferred actions * preferred way to clue without additional plays: * referential color clue (including the case that this is the last unclued card in the hand) * direct number clue (assuming this is a play clue) * referential number clue * If you receive a referential number clue in the endgame and a player after you has a playable card in finesse position, you are allowed to assume that card is gotten. * Playful play clues take priority over trash bluffs * When stalling: loaded fill-in clues > right-most rank fill-in clues. So right-most rank fill-in clue is a lock when a loaded fill-in clue exist. * Furthermore, try to fill in cards that you can finesse with a no-information clue. The reason is that this gives the most flexible finesse possibilities. * Filling in chop moved cards with color is not allowed, and causes a finesse. * We discard trash from right to left * Anxiety plays are from right-most of the cards that are most likely playable * Default card played to not induce prio when playing equivalent cards is leftmost (?) * Priority, just like prompt, calls for cards from the right * If the prio could have been given in an earlier round, priority comes from finesse position (it does *not* shift to second rightmost) * Err on the side of priority being on. ### Finesse/bluff clarifications * loaded finesses / double bluffs > playful positional > loaded layered self-finesses * single bluffs with a loaded clue don't exist * If you're still waiting to play into a previously given finesse, and you get a new finesse, and you've drawn a new card since the previous finesse, you can play into the second finesse clue. * You have to respect reverse finesses if you're loaded (known play or known discard) * We allow bluffs where chop is the focus of the clue that touch chop with color. We do not allow bluffs on non-chop (that are only bluffs by negative info) * If someone is finessed, imagine a clued-border around Finesse Position 1. The newest unclued card is now 1st finesse position and the oldest unclued card is 2nd finesse position. * Prompt + finesse takes priority over ejection ### Misc clarifications * Direct 1-for-1 rank play clue (not playful) in a non-white variant gives **strong** known trash notes on the card to the right * Telling someone about an unplayable dupe in their hand finesses if there is another save clue you can give which puts trash on top. * To decide whether a clue is a finesse vs ejection/charm, we take promptable/finessable cards into account. So you count cards that the intermediate player has to blindplay themselves. * To decide between ejection/charm, we *only* take clued cards into account, not cards in finesse position. * Ejections are allowed on top of clued playable cards in other hands. E.g. if r1 is clued and playable in Donald's hand, Alice can ref clue the r4 in Cathy's hand and Bob plays 2nd finesse position. * Double (triple) order chop move chop moves the next player twice (thrice). * Doing the longest order chop move you can forces the next player to give a clue, unless they have received PTD from another player. They are allowed to give a locked-hand right-most rank fill-in clue. * If you see that every useful card is playable, you can do a "positional" discard. If you skip over n expected discard, and discard the (n+1)-st expected discard, that is a positional on n-nth finesse position on someone. * ~~When you know you have elimination notes (possibly through context reads) that one of two cards is a missing playable, and one is clued, then you can play the clued card (if you have nothing else to do).~~ * Discarding a playable card (even delayed) promises rightmost. Discarding a useful card from a locked hand does not promise position * Never play the leftmost of like-clued cards if you could be bombing a useful card * Therefore, prompts, gds, anxiety, and picking where a 4 and 5 are from good touch are all rightmost * If you're definitely not bombing a useful card, then play left-to-right * if someone needs 2 save clues, the following are ways to ask for for the second save clue (in this order): * put a critical card on chop * touch right-most unclued card * if you receive a discard clue, immediately followed by a finesse, you finesse the new chop. Immediately means that you had no turns in between the two clues. * trash-order chop moves are off. They are always a finesse. * using the last clue to lock a player tells one of the other players that they have trash on chop (newest unclued card), even though they already have a play. ### Variant-specific * A brown clue on chop should be respected as a save (and is treated like a rank clue; e.g. can trigger Playful Positional) * Cluing brown on 2 adjacent brown cards is focused on the leftmost brown card, and should be given as soon as possible. * Bob might have to respond to a finesse/ejection/discharge if the brown card is not playable * If not given as soon as possible, then it reverts back to a referential clue. * In brown, when receiving a 1-for-1 rank play clue on chop: * If someone just played a brown card, "brown or kt" should be entertained on the next card * Otherwise, the next card is kt * In pink we play cards right-to-left. * If we lie about rank in pink, we choose the highest available rank. * When fixing a pink card, pink generally is a fix without extra meaning. A rank clue is also a save. * In white, when receiving a 1-for-1 rank play clue on chop, the next card should be marked as "white or kt" ### To decide * ~~If you clue a blue 1 (say) with number, but it is a suboptimal clue, then it is a playful finesse. Now what if the player also holds blue 2? Does the playful finesse refer to the blue 1 or the blue 2?~~ * What is your finesse position when stacking a clue on a finessed card? * It is your left-most unclued unfinessed card. * Directly after a save clue, does first finesse position move? How about in later rounds? * A finesse immediately after a save clue calls chop to play as first finesse. * In later rounds, first finesse position is the chop moved card. * If chop has ptd, should finessing call the first finesse position that is not chop? * Nope, the finesse position is the card with ptd. Ejections/Discharges/Charms get other slots. * ~~More extreme: finesse position moves to slot 4 always after having a turn without drawing~~ ### Heuristics we need to converge on * Early game discard eagerness and ocm ptd * discard vs. save policy when you have ptd but it allows other players to play ### Timo rambling about PTD Interesting turns: - https://hanab.live/replay/783229#14 - What does Stephen do if Libster's chop is useful? And what if trash? - https://hanab.live/replay/783981#1 - What does florrat do? - https://hanab.live/replay/784002#2 - Is Timo obligated to clue? - https://hanab.live/replay/785248#4 - Is Stephen allowed to discard because Timo could've drawn trash? ### florrat's scratchpad * Kick double ignitions exist * Pestilent double bluffs exist * Tempo is not important if chop is trash * When doing a push, cards that are playable by good touch have to play first * We prompt from the right * We loaded-play clue and tempo-clue left-most card * We play without clue from the right if there might be an unplayable useful card (left otherwise) * We anxiety play from the right ### sjdrodge's scratchpad * stacked finesses treat previously called cards as [clued] and call the leftmost unclued card. They do not necessarily proceed to 2nd finesse position.
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