# Week 09

###### tags: `OLS-2` `coworking call` `project-leads`

:earth_asia: Cohort call
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- Schedule: [**Personal Ecology, Self Care, Ally Skills**](https://openlifesci.org/ols-2/schedule#week-09)
- Date and time: [29 October 2020, 15:00 - 16:30 LONDON](https://arewemeetingyet.com/London/2020-10-29/15:00/week-9-cohort-call), Duration: 90 minutes
- [Video on YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8niC2UB25ys&list=PL1CvC6Ez54KBgzgA8eBQWjvF5rQex00cn&index=6&t=1674s)

:house: Before this meeting
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**Personal Ecology and self care**
- Think about how you might briefly answer the following questions
- Imagine your most fulfilling day at work. Think of 3 word-pairs to describe it.
- Imagine your most **Un**fulfilling day at work. Think of 3 word-pairs to describe it.
- **The big idea:** identify the most fulfilling conditions under which you thrive - sustain them; identify the least fulfilling conditions that frustrate you - avoid them.

**Preparing for the Ally Skills**
- Think how people step up for you in social scenarios and how you step up for them to support each othe:
- What do your colleagues do to make your workplace inclusive for you?
- What do you do to make your workplace inclusive for them?
- **The big idea:** Based on your experience, what would you consider doing to make your project inclusive for your contributors or team members?

**After this meeting:**

- **No assignment!**

**Table of contents**

[TOC]

:earth_asia: Cohort call
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==We will use a Google doc for collaboration: [**PLEASE VISIT THIS LINK**](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wKJiQZtZ87r8ptlF8xkHT-KNSeOxnQu4EtQg3f5ptlE/edit?usp=sharing)==

**Call time**: 29 October 2020, 15:00 - 16:30 LONDON time, [see in your time zone](https://arewemeetingyet.com/London/2020-10-29/15:00/week-9-cohort-call)

**Hosts**: Emmy, Hao, Malvika, Yo

**Syllabus**: [OLS-2 Week-9](https://openlifesci.org/ols-2/schedule/#week-09)

**During this week's cohort call, we will:**

- Discuss self-care plans
- Learn about Ally skills

:wave: Roll call
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**Breakout room preference:**

Please edit your Zoom name (click on the three dots on the top right of your video) and add one of the following letters in front of your name.

- **W** for *Written Discussion Breakout Room*
- **S** for *Spoken Discussion Breakout Room*

This will help us assign you to the breakout room with format of your choice (Read more about [why we run different format of breakout rooms](https://hackmd.io/Rxv59dqAQ1C7gnHz5P-5PQ)):

Name (pronouns - optional) / Project / social handles (twitter - t, GitHub - gh, etc.) / [emoji mood](https://emojipedia.org/)

- Hao Ye (he/him) / UF Reproducibility / t: @Hao\_and\_Y / 
- Yo Yehudi / OLS / t: yoyehudi g: yochannah
- Emma Karoune/ Open science in Phytolith Research/ t- @ekaroune,gh - EKaroune/🤩
- Renato Alves (he/him) / OSUM / t:@renato_alvs gh:@unode / 😵
- Malvika Sharan (she/her) / OLS / t+gh: malvikasharan / 💪
- Sophia Batchelor (she/her) / The Turing Way - Ethical Guide / t - @brainonsilicon
- Delphine Lariviere (she/her)/ Bioloab open source project (mentor)/ github: Delphine-L, twitter: @ddlariviere
- Piv Gopalasingam (he/him) / mentor / -t:@cascade21, -gh:@PivG / 
- Sangram keshari Sahu (he/him) Practical Guide to Reproducibility in Bioinformatics github
- Pradeep Eranti (he/him)/ Open platform for Indian Bioinformatics community / t: [@pradeeperanti](https://twitter.com/pradeeperanti) /
- Ismael Kherroubi Garcia / Guide for Ethical Research (The Turing Way) / t: @IsmaelKherGar
- Laura Carter / Guide for Ethical Research / @LauraC_rter
- Danny Garside (he/him) / Registered Reports in Primate Neurophysiology / t: da5nsy / 💤
- Beatriz Serrano-Solano (she/her) / Growing the Galaxy Community / t: Birthae, gh: beatrizserrano
- Harriet Natabona/covid-19 open science communication/ t: @hnatabona/ g: @natty2012
- Jelioth Muthoni (she/her)/covid-19 open science communication/github@Jelioth
- Teresa Laguna (Sci4AllFood Science Shop) / t: @teresa__laguna / g: @tlaguna
- Hilyatuz Zahroh (she/her) / APBioNetTalks / t: @hilyatuz_zahroh / g: @hzahroh
- Karega Pauline/The-Hub-Portal/ t:@KaregaP / g:@karegapaline
- Georgia Aitkenhead/The Alan Turing Institute/GeorgiaHCA/

### 🍧 Icebreaker question

If you have to spend 2 months in a basic house on a small island, what 2-3 things would you bring along to take care of your physical and mental health?

Name / answer
- Malvika / books all fictions - stories + Yoga mat (o’m Yoga channel from YouTube) + big appetite to cook and eat nice stuff
- Yo / Snuggly blankets / good books / warm drinks
- Delphine: my cat, books, my instant pot, a set of dumbells
- Ismael / a coffee maker and an armchair
- Emma/ Lots of chocolate, books, coffee espresso machine with endless supply of coffee
- Sangram / music or podcast
- Sophia / Internet related set up and solar powered fairy lights. 
- Piv / audiobooks / yoga mat / playstation
- Jelioth/Bible/computer
- Hao / coffee (is there delivery service for it to be freshly roasted? maybe a roaster then, too?), ukulele, a map of the island?
- Renato / satellite internet connection with “work controls” enabled
- Laura / an ereader with a \*lot\* of fiction, a very comfy chair/pile of sturdy pillows, lots of spices for cooking
- A spice cabinet (cheating?)
- Georgia/Oatley ice cream and a dog 

🗣️ Welcome!
---

Malvika: (4 mins) [⏰ 4]

**Call recording reminder:**
- Please note that this call will be recorded
- The video will be available on the [YouTube channel](https://www.youtube.com/c/OpenLifeSci) in the next few days
- Turn on your webcam if you don't mind being in the video (or off if you do!)

**Participation reminder:**

- [Code of conduct & community participation guidelines ](https://openlifesci.org/code-of-conduct)
- If you experience or witness unacceptable behaviour, or have any other concerns, please report it by contacting the organisers - Bérénice, Malvika and Yo. ([[e-mail]](mailto:[e-mail])).
- To report an issue involving one of the organisers, please email one of the members individually ([[e-mail]](mailto:[e-mail]), [[e-mail]](mailto:[e-mail]), [[e-mail]](mailto:[e-mail])).

🌱 Personal Ecology and Self Care
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"You cannot sustain a movement without sustaining yourself" ([_Akaya Windwood_](https://workopen.org/listening-to-the-edges/), [_Rockwood Leadership Institute_](https://rockwoodleadership.org/)_)_

[Slides](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vSyGYllxLypVdHxfc7wTPQTFshsGpwDxXTgxlQWm19Zd959-GiD098DMOdcW0K0KGYyLefyPrdhFeHF/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000)

**Reflection exercise: silent note taking**

**Directions:** Share 1-3 word-pairs to describe your most fulfilling day at work. Then share 3 word-pairs to describe your least fulfilling one. Then consider sharing a little story or explain a bit about your responses to the group. Instead of story, you can also share something else - like an image, quote, recipe, or song, that best reflects your thoughts.

*Maybe share a gif, song or a quote if you don't want to share your word pairs?*

**The big idea:** identify the most fulfilling conditions under which you thrive - sustain them; identify the least fulfilling conditions that frustrate you - avoid them.

**Word pairs that describe your most fulfilling**
* Danny / Problem solving, Supporting others, Big picture
* Pradeep / Positive interactions, Ideas welcoming-environment, communicating ideas
* Delphine/ Problem Solving/ Group brainstorming/ Learning
* Ismael / new ideas, some reading, tangible output
* Emma / great ideas / finishing tasks / active work
* Bea / people connected / fun work while helping people
* Teresa: great ideas / finishing task / learn something (new)
* Sophia / moving closer to overall vision / solving something / unblocking others and feeling like we are in a space to do our best work
* Laura: positive communicating / hitting milestone / looking forward / time and space to think
* Harriet: good team communication/ fruitful work breakthrough
* Yo / Quiet time
* Hao / enthusiastic teamwork, goal setting, supportive colleagues
* Piv / group brainstorming/problem-solving, supporting, finishing tasks
* Jelioth/objective/peaceful/joyous
* Hilya/ Positive communication/ great teamwork / finishing tasks
* Kendra / flow, understanding,
* Georgia/ meaningfulness, excitement
*

**Word pairs that describe your most unfulfilling**

* Sophia / demeaned or spoken down to / arguing instead of building / lose faith and interest in work and goals
* Laura: no concentration / unreasonable blocking / stuck in a rut
* Ismael / no focus, poor exchanges, menial tasks
* Harriet: an overloaded schedule of competing activities/ unfruitful communication or interaction
* Bea / conflict / colleagues not motivated
* Emma / no time/ negative feedback
* Danny / slow progress, feeling isolated, physically tiring
* Pradeep: one-person army approach (not welcoming contributions from others), lack of exchanges, negative feedback
* Delphine/ no progress/ repetition/ isolation
* Yo - “too much”, “just quickly”, “Inbox full”
* Teresa: unproductive discussions / excessive multitasking / multiple videomeetings
* Hao / distraction spiral +1 Yo
* Piv / overcommitted, blocking and undermining behaviour, lost focus
* Jelioth/disoriented, non-objective/chaotic
* Hilya / too many or long hours meetings / distraction
* Kendra /
* Georgia/tension,boredom

Any reflection, thoughts or ideas you want to share with others?

* [name=Laura] I like the quote from Audre Lorde: “caring for myself is not self-indulgence, it is self-preservation and that is an act of political warfare” (name=Sophia WOW this QUOTE!!)
* [name=Piv] Knowing when to stop working - I used to think quantity (i.e. hours worked) equated to productivity. But it wasn’t sustainable for me, and I rarely recognized the feelings of burnout or isolation that resulted from overworking. Nowadays, I put less pressure on myself and set a strict cut-off point to stop working. However, working from home has disrupted this a bit. My work involves collaborating with colleagues in different time zones and I usually keep my Slack/Whatsapp notifications on *just in case* there are small questions I can quickly answer. Once a month I find myself unable to sleep and weirdly work until I feel sleepy - which doesn’t really work. I haven’t really found the solution but I suspect it involves making a comfortable spot and reading a book...
* [name=Sophia] I have “goals” that are either categorzied as “mind” (what fuels my mind), “body” (what supports my body), or “soul” (what allows my soul to flourish). I make sure that I am doing tasks each day that cover or move me closer towards my goals in each of those categories, and then if I’m feeling off I check in with what area (mind, body soul) has not been getting addressed and be more mindful. I realized that I need to do things that are about all three in order to actually take care of myself properly.
* I write gratitude lists, and at the end of a hard day I will write “what did I do today to honor the life that I have” and it really helps me remember that 1) we do NOT need to pay rent for our existence, and 2) that I AM getting things done
* I am super bad at separating personal and work tasks. I need to be more conscious about the separation to protect myself from burnout.
* [name = Danny] I remember during my PhD when I started going to meditation at the London Buddhist Centre that it felt revolutionary to have an evening that was just devoted to me - it wasn’t work, or fitting in with someone else’s plans - it was just for me. I’ve stopped meditating in the last year or so, and I think now is the right time for me to rekindle that practice.
* Delphine : One of the main reason I have a hard time separating my work life and personnel life is the irregularity of my focus abilities, I work very well late in the evening, but not great in the beginning of the afternoon… I also have a hard time taking breaks and stopping a task once I started with it (ADHD ftw)
* +1 I soooo relate to this. My ADHD gives me weird focus peaks at strange times. It’s really annoying.. [name=Piv]. Do you have any tips on how to effectively step away from tasks/work and take breaks?
* Ismael / I make sure to have clearly set working hours in terms of work (I take OLS to be a bit separate, although it overlaps in interesting ways). My point is: prioritise working the hours you are paid for, and only then work extra time when some projects require an extra push, but the priority is in knowing where work ends and life begins. And I 100% appreciate that this is difficult in COVID times!
* Emma - I’m super bad at self care as I am a mum of two kiddies! I tend to work in any spare moment - could be 4am or late nights. Planning a fun family day out or we did a lot of bike riding by the sea in the last lockdown that was lovely.
* [name=Laura] Now that I’m at home ALL THE TIME I have strict working hours and I try not to do anything work-related outside of those. I’m also lucky to have a workspace (albeit one in the kitchen/living room) so that I can keep my work there and not have it bleed into other parts of our little flat.
* I don’t set up the alarm clock for the morning, wake up naturally and do some yoga. It makes the day easier!
* I recently got an app to learn to play piano (this piano is sitting in my apartment for a long several months) - this app is not free and I feel that paying a price helps you appreciate the tool more :D - I am genuinely enjoying to learn piano and that progress makes me feel happy and less overwhelmed with work.
* [name = Danny] what is it called!?
* Yo - is anyone else finding it harder to preserve the “me care” boundaries while stuck at home? I certainly am :( ([name=Piv] Yes :(, the bad weather here is putting me off walks )
* +1
* Emmy - i guess i learnt that self care is a roller coaster type journey: some days I’m better at it, others I’d really beat myself up for not doing better - but that realisation stopped me from beating myself up,
* +1

**Supplementary Materials:**

- [Prompts for self assessment and goal setting](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iqB3sXR_FF34tJTkrpNxIq0pkrD3f1Ke/view?usp=sharing)

**Open Q & A time**

How does everyone treat OLS tasks (mentor/mentee): either work or life task?
* [name=Laura] I’ve moved it into work (from life) and I’m glad I did: it’s made me more focused and I’m making more progress - but I’m lucky to have the space for it in my work (my PhD supervisors are extremely hands-off)
* I am a student and so far treating it as a non-work task just to avoid embarrassment from my supervisor.
* [name=Danny] That’s a really tricky question for me - it feels like a very important part of my life, but there’s not a great amount of support from my PI, and so doing it during work time feels strange.
* [name=Sophia] I’m having to separate out my PhD work from everything else because of how little support I’m getting in my program. And I’m accepting now of where I want to be professionally outside of just the PhD and just pulling back resources from projects that are not serving me getting towards my goals of who and where I want to be.
* [name=Emmy] when i first did open science things at my PhD my supervisor was not not supportive, but i think a lot of people around me thought that i was doing these things because my experiments were failing. But in the end it led to this becoming some sort of a career? (i don’t know where i’m trying to go with this point….) I guess I learnt to listen to my “internal self” on what i really wanted to do.

📚 Further reading
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- Sustain Summit ([https://sustainoss.org/](https://sustainoss.org/))
- Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure ([https://www.fordfoundation.org/about/library/reports-and-studies/roads-and-bridges-the-unseen-labor-behind-our-digital-infrastructure](https://www.fordfoundation.org/about/library/reports-and-studies/roads-and-bridges-the-unseen-labor-behind-our-digital-infrastructure))
- Changelog episode #281 ([https://changelog.com/podcast/281](https://changelog.com/podcast/281))
- Cooperative model eg doug Belshaw et al
- [https://blog.weareopen.coop/about (from Maha)](https://blog.weareopen.coop/about)

🌳 Ally skills
---

Instructors: **Hao and Emmy**

[Slides](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/e/2PACX-1vRTxI8-8OH_1hv-KH65zB73hoqGCUBIlPxzFYYIBQrT4gfGV7tcUKOwfXo0Xu3O4tqZ-Z9gwTJyDN0z/pub?start=false&loop=false&delayms=3000)

**Supplementary Materials:**

- [Slides](https://files.frameshiftconsulting.com/Ally%20Skills%20Workshop%20slides.pdf)
- [Handout](https://files.frameshiftconsulting.com/Ally%20Skills%20Workshop%20handout%20-%20Letter.pdf)
- [Identifying power and privileges](https://files.frameshiftconsulting.com/Identifying%20your%20power%20and%20privilege%20-%20Letter.pdf)
- [Goal setting exercise](https://files.frameshiftconsulting.com/Ally%20Skills%20Workshop%20goal-setting%20exercise%20-%20Letter.pdf)

**Hao: introduction (15 mins)**
- Notes

* Understanding terminology: Ally, target
* Same person can be be ally in one situation and target in another
* We all experience privilege in different circumstances
* What to do when I make mistakes? Apologies, correct yourself and move on.
* Do not justify your behaviour
* Shift the focus from your personal feelings to the hurt that may occur to others
* Do not spend time at the situation in explaining your mistakes (you can do that later if you really want to)
* What if we do not see it as a mistake and the other person feels it as a mistake? How to understand what we did as a mistake?
* Hao: There are very real circumstances where a troll is pretending to be harmed so as to drain your time and energy -- this is why we encourage short and simple apologies, and moving on.
* Hao: In most cases, however, the philosophy is “impact not intent” - and I think it is ok to acknowledge the action that is causing harm or offense (it is important to focus on the details, and focusing on the action helps to clarify the behavior and not the intent). Having done an action that causes harm or offense does not make you a bad person! (and it really is untenable to try and understand every situation and interaction in enough depth to avoid all possible mistakes, which is why practicing apologizing is important!)

### Group discussions 

#### Directions:

- We will breakout into smaller groups of 3-4
- Each breakout group will have 15 minutes to discuss 1 given scenario:
- Spoken breakouts: Please choose a gatekeeper, and someone to report out
- Written breakouts: Please find the section in this gDoc with your breakout group name, read the scenario, and individually write your responses to the three questions.
- You are encourage to read others’ responses once you have written yours, comment and +1
- When the discussion time ends, we will rejoin in the main room, each spoken breakout will have 2 minutes to report what they have discussed. Facilitator will summarise the discussion from the written breakouts.

#### Tips:

- If you’re not sure of the situation, go with one interpretation first
- Focus on how to respond to incidents as an ally in this specific incident, not as the target or in the general case
- Avoid rules-lawyering: "But what if there was some specific highly unlikely circumstance in which this situation was not actually bad?"

### Scenarios 1

“On a professional mailing list you belong to, a colleague who came out as trans last semester starts a discussion. In the response thread, another person repeatedly mis-genders them by using incorrect pronouns.” What would you do as an ally?

#### Breakout group 1 (written)

- Group (team members): Brenda, Laura Carter, Muhammet A. Celik, Ismael Kherroubi Garcia
- Notetaker:
- Chair/Gatekeeper:

What are the biases/stereotypes/assumptions in this scenario?
- From the offender: that the trans person’s identity isn’t ‘real’ somehow and so doesn’t need to be respected
- The offender might not appreciate the importance of the trans colleague’s coming out. 
- +1, Or know about it? 
- I’m sad now that my experiences in transphobic spaces means I jump straight to assuming hostile intent: people do make mistakes and need space to learn!

What will your response be as an ally?
- Email the whole list and ask the offender to abide by the code of conduct for the list (hopefully there is one?) - specifically any point about using respectful language and/or not being transphobic
- If there is a code of conduct contact point, contact them as well
- Important thing is to take action, not just sympathise with the victim (although that is important too!)
- +1
- Email the offender separately
- If it seems like a genuine error, respond saying something like ‘X uses ‘she/her’ pronouns now’ - to the whole list?

What are your concerns, if any?
- Retaliation from the offender, especially if they are more senior than me
- Against me or against the victim
- Derailing the discussion away from whatever the first colleague initially wanted to talk about

#### Breakout group 2 (spoken)

“On a professional mailing list you belong to, a colleague who came out as trans last semester starts a discussion. In the response thread, another person repeatedly mis-genders them by using incorrect pronouns.” What would you do as an ally?

- Group (team members): Beatriz, Danny, Hao
- Note-taker/Report back to group: Danny

What are the biases/stereotypes/assumptions in this scenario?

What will your response be as an ally?
- Options:
- Check whether the target was offended / how they felt about it.
- And then...
- Correct publicly or
- Correct privately
- What about - maybe the target wasn’t offended, but it made the space feel less safe, and others felt less safe going forwards
- Depends whether we assume honest mistake / malicious intent
- Tricky to deal with situations where the aggressors are powerful (the boss!)

What are your concerns, if any?
Emmy’s phrasing: “I’m planning to respond with X by Y date, 

What level to escalate to to avoid additional burden on the target.

#### Breakout group 3 (spoken)

“On a professional mailing list you belong to, a colleague who came out as trans last semester starts a discussion. In the response thread, another person repeatedly mis-genders them by using incorrect pronouns.” What would you do as an ally?

Group (team members): Sophia, Kendra, Piv
- Notetaker: each of us will summarize our own points
- Chair/Gatekeeper: Sophia 

What are the biases/stereotypes/assumptions in this scenario?
- It’s not clear whether there actually is a bias here - whether the person wasn’t aware that the colleague is trans

What will your response be as an ally?
- It might be best to assume they don’t know and contact them personally to let them know that they’re using the wrong pronouns
- We could start a separate thread on the mailing list, suggesting that everyone add their pronouns to their email signatures to raise awareness without pointing fingers
- Perhaps update the community guidelines for this professional group

What are your concerns, if any?
-  Initial worries around escalation ie. if the colleague had come out and was comfortable being out, maybe checking in to see how they were and if they felt the drive to say something as well. However asking all members to add in their pronouns may be a great way to diffuse instead of escalate. 

### Scenario 2

“At a meeting a person with a moderate proficiency in English makes a suggestion, but no one picks on it. Later on, another person with high proficiency in English makes the same suggestion and is given credit for it.” What would you do as an ally?

#### Breakout group 4 (written)

Group (team members): Renato, Pradeep, Teresa, Karega

- Notetaker: Renato
- Chair/Gatekeeper: Teresa

What are the biases/stereotypes/assumptions in this scenario?
- That the level of english somehow relates to level of understanding or perceived intelligence
- We realized we were projecting our own experiences/biases into the severity of the scenario

What will your response be as an ally?
-  We would try to balance the credit.
-  Slight inclination to credit the original idea more but would depend on the situation
-  Trying to give equal credit in an inclusive way

What are your concerns, if any?
- That stepping up as an ally undermines the ability of the person to stand up for oneself
- How to credit is unclear. Equal credit may be inadequate

#### Breakout group 5 (spoken)

“At a meeting a person with a moderate proficiency in English makes a suggestion, but no one picks on it. Later on, another person with high proficiency in English makes the same suggestion and is given credit for it.” What would you do as an ally?

- Group (team members): Harriet Natabona, Emma Karoune, Hilyatuz Zahroh, Jelioth Muthoni
- Notetaker: everyone could write their points
- Chair/Gatekeeper: Emma Karoune

What are the biases/stereotypes/assumptions in this scenario?
- Assumption: just because the person doesn’t speak English fluently, it is assumed the person does not know what he/she is talking about
- Emma has experienced it once  - similar situation only female in an otherwise male team - spoken over and not listened to.
- Related to junior/senior level

What will your response be as an ally?
- Address it in not some confrontational way
- When to address - immediate or after the time? - depends on situation one off meeting (needs immediate response) versus regular meeting (could be addressed after and then in next meeting)

What are your concerns, if any?
-  Getting the balance between being confident in addressing your points and avoiding harsh confrontation.
-  What would the response be to an ally who is junior or senior - would this be different?

### Open Q & A time

Malvika mentioned a great point wrt Scenario-2 about giving the space. Could that be elaborated, please? 
- \[name=Yo\] - I think this mostly speaks to the fact that allyship can be small, positive actions - after someone who isn’t listened to speaks up - say “I agree”, or if someone is ignored, just say “I think Joy raised this point earlier - Joy, would you like to elaborate?” - these are actions that aren’t confrontational in any way but just make sure that the right voices are heard and appreciated. 

**Open Q & A time**

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🗣️ Closing
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- Next calls
- [Next cohort call: November 5](https://hackmd.io/@ols-2/week-10), 09:00 - 10:30 pm London time ([in your time zone](https://arewemeetingyet.com/London/2020-11-05/09:00/OLS-1%20Cohort%20Call%20(Week%2010)))

**Open Q & A time**

- How should OLS-2 mentees register for the Ally Skills Training? At this moment, do you have plans to organize them again so that interested OLS/non-OLS people could put a reminder in their calendar to look for those training sessions?
https://openlifesci.org/posts/2020/10/05/ally-skills-training/
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**Feedback**

_What worked?_

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_What didn't work?_

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_What would you change?_

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_What surprised you?_

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*Reference*: Open leadership Framework, Mozilla Open Leaders 6 & 7, Open Life Science 1
*License*: CC BY 4.0, Open Life Science (OLS-2), 2020 --->