Try   HackMD

OSM US Trails Working Group Meeting Notes - 2021-2022

Join Info

Zoom Link / Meeting ID: 868 0715 2232 / Passcode: osmus

March 2, 2023 - Pilot, Mapping & Tech Session

Attendees (pls add your name)

  • Diane Fritz, OSM U.S. Board
  • Maggie Cawley, OSM US
  • Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  • Tony Cannistra, onXmaps
  • Jess Beutler, OSM US
  • Quincy Morgan, OSM US
  • Zeke Farwell (OSM: ezekielf)
  • Patrick McKay (OSM: pmckay419)
  • David McSpaden, GISP & Occasional trail builder
  • TJ Broom, USFS
  • John Ribes
  • Phil Davis, onXmaps
  • Joe O'Brien
  • Monica Brandeis, Locana

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions
  2. What is the TWG - Technical Session?
    • General overview of goals for these sessions
  3. Pilot 1
  4. Pilot "2" and/or "3" or "4"
    • Place and purpose
    • Project Scale
    • Tools
    • Beyond trails
    • Partners
  5. Trail Tagging - next steps

Notes (help us co-create!)

  • First strategy meeting to be held Monday March 13 - if you haven't gotten an invite and want to join let Maggie know
  • Setting up a 'visioning' session to also share back feedback from the forms you all filled out (thank you!)
  • places we care about + authoritative datasets = improved tagging (and what Tony was saying about %)
  • what are our pilot selection criteria
  • Rocky Mountain region has stakeholders, local wg members, mapping need
  • test existing schema in new places but also look at expansion
  • what are people interested in testing?
  • TJ getting questions about motorized access
  • LA County as small area test?
  • TJ - trail adjacent items (campsites) not mapped well - also ties into Utah's work. Would be great for stewardship. day use, restoration… use the Enchantments area as a pilot including a field visit - party of 9. It has high day use.
  • consider stakeholders needed for each item e.g. SAC scales
  • looking at use of PD Map/updated Tasking Manager plus a new app for mapping workflow

January 18, 2023

Attendees

  • Diane Fritz, OSMUS
  • Todd Fitch
  • Amelia Hagen-Dillon
  • Maggie Cawley, OSM US
  • TJ Broom, USFS
  • Zeke Farwell, OSM mapper (ezekielf)
  • Jake Low, OSM mapper (jake-low)
  • Elliott Plack, OSMF Data Working Group, Trails Enthusiast
  • Greg Rose
  • Elizabeth McCartney, USGS
  • Emmi Laakso
  • Jess Beutler
  • Sean Gorman
  • Maggie Gillard

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Review of last meeting
  3. First Pilot/Survey update - form is here
    • responses to date (Jess)
    • next steps to wrap it up
  4. Expanded Pilot
  5. Around the Room
    • State of the Map US 2023 announced - June 8-11 - Richmond VA
      • Call for Proposals likely this Friday
      • let's do an in-person meetup there (not Thursday)
    • Int'l Trails Summit - April in Reno
    • ESRI Fed UC - Maggie, Elliott, Elizabeth, Greg M - anyone else?
  6. Next Steps
    • phase two outline in progress
    • Maggie will send draft blog post, interest form and poll for new time slot by EO next week
    • OSM global - sharing out guidelines for feedback
  7. Next meeting scheduled based on the poll

Notes (help us co-create!)

First pilot notes:

Next pilot notes:

  • define area to include NPS and a different ecosystem
  • Greg Rose working in Yellowstone/Tetons right now - NPS/USFS
  • Idaho/Wyoming state line
  • Canyonlands? reach out to K. Nelson?
  • public domain map pilot - osm us already working with nps/usgs
  • finalize tagging and share out guidelines
  • focus on rendering communication
  • need to focus on documentation
  • find the questions we don't know
  • opening this up to the public will bring additional questions
  • making contributions a bit more straightforward for folks new to OSM

December 14, 2022

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz, osmus
  2. Jess Beutler, osmus
  3. Maggie Cawley, OSMUS
  4. Kevin Kenny
  5. Stephen Mather
  6. Kevin Massey
  7. Maggie Gillard
  8. Greg Rose
  9. Greg Bunce

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Review of last meeting
  3. Pilot/Survey update
    • Preview the form here
    • TJ sent survey to land managers in pilot area (13 people)
    • ~3 responses back to date incl positive verbal response
    • pilot misses NP land
    • MapRoulette task for Lake Chelan needs help
  4. Expanded Pilot - what would everyone like to see? lessons learned from Pilot #1
    • Define 2nd testing area
    • Partners involved
    • Workflow / Tools used
    • Exit Parameters
    • Intended Outputs from #2
  5. Greg Bunce - what's cooking in Utah? (could also do this in January)
  6. Around the Room
  7. Next Steps
    • blog post update
    • Prep folks for a pilot lessons learned / scoping meeting in early Jan
    • outlining an overall plan, timeline & strategy for the Initiative
  8. Look for a poll for the 2023 meetings. MC will include notes, hackpad for feedback, stragetic plan outline, and blog draft link in that email.
  9. Next meeting scheduled for January 18, 2023 5pm ET

Notes (help us co-create!)

Lessons Learned from #1

Future Partners:

  • Dept of Interior

Tools:

  • Public Domain Map (<- this would align with PDM's phase 2 testing)

Future area ideas/thoughts:

  • Utah with K. Nelson/G Bunce?
  • different ecosystem
  • national park land - canyonlands, arches, zion
  • Greg Rose interested in helping scope areas
  • how do trailheads fit in?

Blake Tedder (Duke Forest) sends regrets (couldn't attend)

November 9, 2022

Attendees

  • Maggie Cawley, OSMUS
  • Maggie Gillard, Colorado Parks & Wildlife
  • Trevor Skaggs, Element 84 / Butte County SAR / Chico Velo TrailWorks
  • Kevin Kenny ke9tv, OSM mapper
  • Blake Tedder, Duke University/Duke Forest
  • Elizabeth McCartney, USGS National Digtial Trails project
  • Greg Matthews, USGS User Engagement, Published Maps and Services
  • Kevin Massey
  • TJ Broom, USFS
  • Diane Fritz, OSMUS
  • Sean Gorman
  • Greg Rose
  • Joe O'Brien, AllTrails
  • Jake Low, osm: jake-low
  • Tony Cannistra (Gaia GPS)
  • Steve Mather
  • Zeke Farwell, osm: ezekielf

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks

  2. Review of last meeting

  3. Pilot/Survey update

    • Survey Update from Jess: She has before/after images from both All Trails & Gaia that will be included in the survey and can pick this back up early next week and share the updated form draft on slack for input by EOD Monday 11/14. TJ - is that enough time to share out? There is a TREAD meeting (TJ can share it)

  4. Around the Room

    • Mapping USA - 3:45pm ET -Trails presentation! register :) - how to get involved (form ready? it could live here)
    • Int'l Trails Summit in April - OSM US talk accepted

  5. Next Steps

    • draft interest form by Friday's Mapping USA talk - MC to share draft in slack
    • draft land manager survey by Monday 11/14
    • draft a blog post about the pilot - who'd like to contribute?
    • phase two detail will be sent for your review over the dec holidays

  6. Next Meeting December 14 5pm ET - last meeting of 2022!

    • We'll hear from Greg Bunce about what's cooking in Utah.
    • Will start meeting again late January 2023. Will send a poll!

Notes

  • Interest form outline ideas:
    • what best describes your role: volunteer mapper, land manager,
    • Type of involvement: desktop Mapping, providing outreach to local land managers (liason), groundtruth mapping trails in your area, validation, education
    • where you want to map / region you're in / where you hike
    • any affiliation you want to share
    • Are you a mapper? how do you map? what do you use to map trails? (Laptop, phone, gps, OSM iD, JOSM, MapRoulette, Tasking Manager)
    • OSM Username?
    • do you use trails?
  • TREAD meeting is Nov 16 (next Wednesday); TJ can share the pilot feedback survey with that group if it is ready (TJ - yes I can. it would be helpful to have someting I can hand out and email)
  • Unintended consequences of this interim time?
    • during pilot, more trails were added (mostly informal)
    • many land managers don't connect new trails to OSM data
    • need more outreach to other apps - to render heirarchy
    • it'll be ok based on pilot. majority of changes reflect the tagging guidelines - additional data on existing trail lines (now some will be not be rendered e.g. abandoned trails)
    • expectation setting on timings for updates - not immediate - find out average timing for updates to render the OSM update - suggestions on what to do in the meantime?
    • create crucial windows for suggested edits by (seasonal) changes for land managers if they want to see them by X date
    • what happens with offline maps? they won't update - need to educate those users
  • Blog Post - Wintertime
    • Jan/Feb AllTrails rendering coming out
    • Timing -once we have feedback from land managers
    • Everyone invited to contribute their testimonial!
  • Research Paper - Boulder Parks, LNT, AllTrails - behaviour study; before/after study of impact of the work we're doing - show the value of the work we're doing and show that measurable impact on behaviour. The Enchantments?

October 26 Meeting

Attendees (pls add your name)

  1. Maggie Cawley, OSM US
  2. Jess Beutler, OSM US
  3. Trevor Skaggs, Element 84 / Butte County SAR / Chico Velo TrailWorks
  4. Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  5. Stephen Mather
  6. TJ Broom, Forest Service
  7. Tony Cannistra, Gaia GPS (tcannistra@outsideinc.com)
  8. Emmi Laakso, AllTrails
  9. Maggie Gillard, Colorado Parks & Wildlife - CoTrex App
  10. Joe O'Brien, AllTrails
  11. Elliott Plack, OSM, OSMF DWG
  12. Greg Bunce, State of Utah (UGRC)
  13. Greg Rose

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Review of last meeting
  3. Pilot Update/Needs & Survey
    • Survey, map visual added (Jess)
  4. Communications & Outreach
  5. Around the Room
  6. Next Steps
  7. Next Meeting November 9

Notes (please help co-create)

  • Pilot overview/status - Jake
    • Tagging practices for Official or various other trail types - tesing in Washington
    • ALMOST done -
    • before/after shots for Icicle Creek
  • Survey preview - Jess
    • Jake is the best at screen shots
    • Jess made a slider! can be used for any area
    • add a legend somehow?
    • add a 2nd image for each trail?
    • To move on we need: iframe code for Jess; name the areas (Jake has coordinates!); follow up with questions (TJ)
    • timing - before the holidays?
  • Communications
    • Cities/Counties/BLM having a lot of routes show up on OSM
    • Need an easy way to support? guide on updates
    • AllTrails can get stuff to their 85 strong portal crew, and partnerships with other groups
    • Practioners vs GIS group in land management
  • Around the Room
    • Mapping USA Talks will be on November 11, workshops/etc November 12
    • British Columbia parks - SAR - edit wars. private cabins… hopefully we can help :)
    • Greg Bunce - email from the Utah Governor - UDOT trails initiative -

Commmunications & Outreach

Audience Resources Involvement
Land Managers, Park rangers - -
US OSM Community - -
Global OSM Community - -
Hiking Clubs, Trail Associations - -

October 12 Meeting

Attendees

  1. Elizabeth McCartney
  2. Maggie Cawley
  3. Jess Beutler
  4. Zeke Farwell
  5. Kevin Kenny
  6. Rob Labs
  7. Jake Low
  8. Brian Deaton
  9. Elliott Plack
  10. Kevin Massey
  11. Tony Cannistra
  12. TJ Broom
  13. Emmi Laakso
  14. Diane Fritz
  15. Joe O'Brien
  16. Greg Rose

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Review of last meeting
  3. Announcements / Around the Room
  4. Pilot Update/Needs
  5. Survey Needs
  6. Communications - Jess
    • Partner logos - please share with Jess if you'd liked to be listed as a partner on this work/initiative
    • Get involved form
    • Audiences
  7. Next Steps / To Dos
  8. Next Meeting - October 26

Notes (pls help co-create)

  • Rendering Demo from Emmi - Add Feedback here!
    • Add a legend to the map
    • looks great! nice job
  • Idea: let’s create a sac scale guide for land managers with suggestions how a green blue black might translate, etc. (Elliot)
  • sac scales: Higher levels are not rendered - Gaia 3 and below, AllTrails 4 and below
  • hikers may have no clue what a sac scale is
  • hikers trust the blue dot more than a uniformed park rep
  • Pilot - wrap up at Mapping USA?
  • Survey
    • Jess/Tony/Diane to talk about survey tool
    • how do we show the before/after
    • TJ can share with his group first for feedback
    • Jake has a bunch of before shot on Gaia GPS and can capture the afters - yay! will drop in flickr
  • Communications
    • want to make sure we add all partners to stuff
    • trying to make sure we capture all audiences/target groups
    • Form (VERY DRAFT) for folks to get involved here
  • Outreach to other recreation app companies
    • CalTopo (Emmi)
    • Strava (Maggie)
    • Mapbox (not getting involved right now)
    • others?
  • how do you communicate that the data isn't gospel?
    • there are terms of service that people click through
    • [ WARNING: Unmarked trails and woods roads shown on this map may be obscure and difficult to follow, even for experienced hikers ] is a stock black-box warning on one series of paper maps I use
  • Verdict: devices are winning over local human knowledge
  • what are the educational opportunities for this group?
    • carry a paper map ;)
    • OSM + land managers

September 14th Meeting (Next week is our 1 year!)

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US
  2. Maggie Cawley, OSM US
  3. Tony Cannistra (Gaia GPS)
  4. Jess Beutler, OSM US (OSM: jessbeutler)
  5. Zeke Farwell (OSM: ezekielf)
  6. Greg Bunce (State of Utah - UGRC)
  7. Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  8. TJ Broom, USFS
  9. Joe O'Brien, AllTrails
  10. Brian Deaton
  11. Greg Rose
  12. Greg Matthews
  13. Nellie Blair
  14. Kevin Kenny
  15. Szewah Long?

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Report from SOTM & FOSS4G conference
  5. Review Survey Questions
  6. Feedback maps
    • Bivariate trail representation (solid/dotted)
  7. Rendering updates
  8. Open Discussion
  9. Next meeting Oct 12

Notes

Announcements:

  • AllTrails launched Public Lands Portal! Demo…
  • NSGIC presentation Sept 19 in Portland

SOTMUS report

  • Link to 10 minute presentation, but it was mostly for Q&A. Response was overwhelmingly positive (GLOBAL). We need a responsible recreation guide! Many countries are looking at us as a model.

Form Feedback:

  • Are there trails showing prominently that are not intended for main public use? If so, what is the intended use of these trails?
  • official/unofficial/illegal (different agencies use different terms, but it's fine to use something simple for the pilot) (other terms: system/non-system/unathorized)
    1. Environmental impact, 2. safety, 3. legal, etc. Might uncover edge cases for us?
  • emphasized, de-emphasized, not showing
  • Joe: what's the goal of the questions, and what answers in what format will let us accomplish those goals? Is it to understand the opinions of land managers around how they're rendered for the public? Is it to identify edge cases in our tagging schema? Articulating one or two goals that this survey will answer/accomplish for us might sharpen our questioning
  • not come up as an issue for the NPS federal trails group - whole thing is meant for system trails
  • Diane - the point is - do you see a change? if you see something that's prominent and should be, why? If you see someont that's not prominent and shouldn't be, why? and then comment space. (TJ thinks this'll work)
  • folks get the questions after they look at the maps pertinent to their area in another doc

August 10, 2022 Meeting

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US board
  2. Maggie Cawley, OSM US
  3. Jess Beutler, OSM US
  4. Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  5. Tony Cannistra
  6. Mike Passo, American Trails
  7. Joe O'Brien
  8. Blake Tedder, Duke University (NC)
  9. Greg Rose
  10. Greg Matthews
  11. TJ Broom
  12. Nellie Blair
  13. Brian Sperlongano
  14. Troy Hartwig
  15. Kevin Kenny

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Overview of UC ESRI panel (Maggie)
  5. Communication progress / reactions
  6. Editing Tools (pilot project, JOSM, etc.)
  7. Stakeholder engagement - pilot / land managers
  8. Stories of trail editing?
  9. Next Steps: survey for land managers, invite to tribal rep, Y/N rendering visual, phases fleshed out incl stakeholder engagement

Notes

  • Pilot Review - Stakeholders
    • TJ to help connect with land managers in the pilot region (talked to Tread 2 months ago)
    • what is the timeline for having the before/after rendering for feedback?
    • explain the tagging difference and improvements / what is included for what purposes - does it reflect reality?
    • Quick survey to fill out and a slide deck to annotate - is there something else we can use to make it easier?
    • do we want feedback from mappers on the tagging?
    • ask what is missing from the workflow as well - and we can work on that in Phase 2
  • Outline of phases
    • 1: finish editing pilot and testing tagging schema. survey the land managers, make any revisions and feedback for phase 2
    • 2: prep any tech and educational resources and outreach to local partners - build that list and find who is missing
    • 3: launch the campaign - one region at a time?
  • Noted interest in creating a resource for lan managers (i.e. likely smaller ones) to learn OSM basics and quickly manage tagging in their landbase to optimize rendering
  • broader education about open data and crowdsourcing as well, and how they can plug in
  • how to address issues with trails - particularly on tribal land - that are sacred, historic, or for sites along a trail
  • This presentation is happening soon - any questions for the global OSM community?
  • ESRI UC
    • elizabeth/tatyana - national digital trails
    • greg - maplands act
    • maggie - sharing TWG
    • LA county - many resources for mapping
  • Native Gov group https://nativegov.org/
  • Tribal Lands layer https://www.bia.gov/bia/ots/dpmc/bogs

Presence on the wiki… refer to OSMUS Trails page
Pertinent wiki pages for review:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Hiking
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mountain_biking
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:informal
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:path%3Ddesire
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Social_path
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:trail_visibility
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Illegal_paths
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:access%3Dno
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dhiking
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dfoot
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States/Public_lands

Any others?

July 13th Meeting

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US board
  2. Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  3. Kevin Massey
  4. Jess Beutler (OSM: jessbeutler)
  5. Kevin Kenny (OSM: ke9tv)
  6. Mike Passo
  7. Emmi Laakso (AllTrails)
  8. Joe O'Brien (AllTrails)

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Tagging decision
  5. (Report from ESRI UC trails panel) - delayed to next meeting
  6. Communications & project pace
    • One-pager flyer
    • Conferences

Notes

We may have a shortened meeting due to folks being at ESRI UC. Or someone maybe able to join and report on how yesterday's panel went!

Tagging Decision

  • We are extending the definition of informal=yes
  • OSM maps what is on the ground, not the history of trail formation
  • Any trail that has been decomissioned or built illegally will be covered by the updated definition we will carefully/slowly propose/introduce to the OSM community
  • There was some dancing

Implementation of tagging schema in renderers

  • There is momentum to incorporate the tagging into some rendering applications (All Trails and Gaia are here!)
  • Mapbox - their tile products are another intermediary that will affect trail data. Not all applications go straight to OSM data and use it, but go through Mapbox (or Maptiler, etc.)

Communications

  • Past and Upcoming presentations
    • Yesterday: ESRI UC trails panel
    • August 21: SOTM
    • April 17-21: International Trails Summit
  • New materials
  • Pace of communications is the limiting factor

Mike Passo encouraged us to submit a talk for the Trails Summit meeting in April, which we're already planning (deadline is extended)!

June 15th Meeting

Attendees (pls add your name)

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US board
  2. Maggie Cawley
  3. Kevin Kenny (OSM: ke9tv)
  4. Zeke Farwell (OSM: ezekielf)
  5. Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  6. Tom Mueller
  7. Brian Sperlongano, OpenStreetMap US board
  8. Jess Beutler
  9. Mike Passo
  10. Greg Rose
  11. Andrew Duff
  12. Joe O'Brien
  13. Tony Cannistra
  14. TJ Broom

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Overview outlook & upcoming PR (Maggie)
  5. Desired future involvement
    • How do you see yourself participating in the TWG once the schema has been settled?
  6. Need for new tag? (Zeke/Diane/Jake)
  7. Status of Pilot and Communication Strategies
  8. Future Meeting Cadence (monthly?) and check-ins on private WG slack (trailswg) join at slack.openstreetmap.us

Notes (pls help co-create

Upcoming Dates for external communication:

  • June 29 All Trails Beta
    • Partnering with 30-35 land managers: main question is what is OSM?
    • Engage with active partners - education
    • We may have more TWG members
  • July 12 ESRI UC with The National Digital Trails team
    • Presentation by Maggie
    • Engage into federal agencies (maybe a list of questions for them?)
    • How do we ask for support
    • Maggie happy to have feedback on presentation
  • August 21 State of the Map
    • Invitation to be part of a 6am ET presentation (noon in Italy)

Email trails@openstreetmap.us letting us know how you see yourself wanting to be involved with this group moving ahead. Maggie would like to put together some kind of phase/timeline for future ideas as well.

  • how do we get feedback on these screen captures? Diane suggests commenting on Google slides
  • A "good carriage nudge" on the pilot mapping

June 1st Meeting

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US board
  2. Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  3. Martijn van Exel (OSM US; OSM: mvexel)
  4. Maggie Cawley - OSM US
  5. Zeke Farwell (OSM: ezekielf)
  6. Joe O'Brien (AllTrails)
  7. Kevin Massey
  8. TJ Broom
  9. Greg Rose
  10. Greg Matthews
  11. Tony Cannistra
  12. Kevin Kenny

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Report from TREAD meeting (TJ)
  5. Stats on tags (Jake)
  6. New tagging proposal

Notes

(Retro-Added on 6/15)

  • TJ felt the presenation to TREAD went well, but it was one of many major topics
    • Main question attendees has: How does OSM even work?
    • Needed: visual graphic showing how OSM data is created and used
  • Jake's U.S. Trails Stats presentation
  • Diane shared she met with Tom Mueller - an instructor who has students that can be next in line to test the mapping process.
  • Hanging question to contemplate: How is the data structure affected when the tags (like operator) are on the routes and not the ways? How do applications use these in their backend. What makes sense for OSM consensus?

May 18th Meeting

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US board
  2. TJ
  3. Zeke
  4. Jake
  5. Greg Matthews
  6. Greg Rose
  7. Joe
  8. Kevin Kenny ke9tv

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements
    3. Podcast
    4. Blog post on Pilot Project
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Commmunications Status
  5. Pilot Project status
  6. Other? (When/how to serve trails layer, other tags, etc.)

Notes

  • Podcast sharing the TWG is out! Have a listen here:
  • New blog post announcing Pilot Project to OSM community
  • Communication with landmanagers
    • Orientation pamphlet
      • Where are the bounding boxes
    • Survey
      • Questions to incorporate?
      • Marking up paper copies may be the most natural way to get feedback.
      • Better could be something like scribble maps.
      • Roll up feedback to agency perspective
  • Pilot Project Status
    • Much googling about trail status and number. Credible references are sometimes hard to find.
    • Some are easy, some need ground observation.
    • Using IVM
    • Tasking Manager chunks south of Wenatchee. Similar issues.
    • Need to look at bigger pictures to do good mapping.
    • Tendency to cheat and map outside of task to complete a whole park area.
  • Future outlook
    • Step-wise process. highway=path is going to be rendered as a prominent trail for a while.
    • Building bridges with land managers: these folks are strapped for time and can't be stewards of the OSM data in their area, so our goal is to provide them with materials that help them understand what OSM is, and then connect them with local mapping communities.
    • Nudging folks gently into the world of this kind of digital data infrastructure needs to be done for the benefit for all.
  • PADUS = the best for showing land management boundaries. Good base layer. Use "fee-owned" Updated yearly.
    • In theory, it should be sweeping in local data, but sometimes state parks lag.
    • Surveyors are needed for precise work.
    • And then there's the fun of projections.
    • Scale usage 1:24,000 (within 40ft of true postion 90% of the time) (more generally, within 0.02 inch/0.5 mm at specified map scale)
    • https://www.sciencebase.gov/catalog/item
  • (Joe's thoughts/reaction to rendering the grey area)
    • If we were to render trails that are unkown the same way as trails that are designated as social, do we create a situation where a management agency feels no motivation to assist in clarifying the data because "well, everything is rendered as social and I'm tyring to reduce use, so my problem is solved and I don't gain anything by tagging trails accurately"
      • The inverse, where there are tags that can designate a trail as social or official, but the default is 'official' or 'unknown' creates an incentive for engagement from the land management community and volunteers/npos who can assist
    • Does changing to that system of 'unknown = unofficial' actually benefit the public, who is looking for what is true? If I know that a rendering means "social trail, OR we don't know" then I as a responsible trail user can't act on that information because I'm limiting my recreation opportunities knowing some of those trails are not social or objectionable, they're just unknown. We're just trading "if not known, official" for "if not known, unofficial" and in some sense punishing people who are trying to be responsible by limiting the places they can explore out of fear of not knowing if a trail is official or not
    • An 'unknown' category with neutral rendering weight would be more likely for AllTrails to adopt, because it is accurate, incentivizes improved data over time from land managers, and incremental. It also allows communities at the local level to aggressively address and be immediately rewarded for updating the most problematic social trails - the trail is moved from a neutral-weight 'unknown' category to a de-emphasized lighter-weight 'social' category

Action Items:

  • Diane will look for digital map feedback platform
  • Jake will pull some tagging statistics
  • Diane will complete one-pager
  • All - think about questions for survey

May 4th Meeting

Attendees (pls add your name)

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US board
  2. Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  3. Joe O'Brien (AllTrails)
  4. Maggie Cawley OSM US ED
  5. TJ BROOM, USFS
  6. Jess Beutler, OSM US
  7. Elizabeth McCartney, USGS
  8. Greg Matthews, USGS
  9. Greg Rose (OSM:'Greg_Rose')
  10. Kevin Kenny (OSM: ke9tv)

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements - short meeting today?
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Pilot Project status
  5. Getting the word out!

Notes (pls help co-create!)

  • Communication
    • podcast
    • pilot project blog post
  • The MapRoulette project is ready!
    • email Jake (hello@jakelow.com) or ping me on OSMUS Slack (@jake-low) if you'd like to try it out but don't know how :-)
  • Tasking Manager project is also active
  • Reference data
    • Add PADUS to instructions - use fee-owned, not proclaimed, meant for 1:24,000
    • "tracks" for NPS
  • Review Process
    • USFS comments
    • mockups - even with photoshop
    • Survey design feedback requested
    • 2 weeks time heads up to set meeting for FS folks
  • Timeline
    • Now: finish blog post and send; start editing
    • Finish editing campaign in ~ next three weeks
    • Design simple survey to launch for mid-June
    • Create mockups / grab screen grabs ready for review around the week of June 20th

April 20th Meeting

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US board
  2. Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  3. Zeke Farwell (OSM: ezekielf)
  4. Greg Rose
  5. Joe O'Brien
  6. Christie McDonald - NPS
  7. Jim McAndrew (osm: jimmyrocks, National Park Service nps)
  8. Tatyana DiMascio - USGS Nat trails project
  9. Greg Matthews - USGS
  10. Tony Cannistra - Gaia
  11. Michael Potter - Bureau of Reclamation
  12. Elizabeth McCartney - USGS Nat trails
  13. Maggie Cawley

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Pilot Project Organizing
  5. Open Topic

Notes (pls help co-create!)

  • Pilot Project
    • Status
      • Tagging guidance
      • Screen Captures
        • Standards: zoom level (15?)
        • Use grid guide?
        • Which: AllTrails, GAIA, CalTopo, Mapbox Outdoor
    • Communication
    • Timeline
      • Blog post - next week (Diane will work on this and ask for review)
      • Pre-editing rendering captures
      • Editing
      • Post-editing rendering captures
      • Map Roulette project needs some re-configuring in the next week or so
      • Need time for the communication to permeate
      • Editing change effects will be apparent as soon as apps go through an update cycle. Potential rendering changes can be done in mockups (AllTrails) or we be patient to see where these land.
      • Goal - have the pilot project done and ready for feedback from land managers by mid-June
    • Feedback Structure
      • Who - Land managers who operate within the pilot areas
      • Form - needs to be simple (online survey?)
      • Content - guide feedback / ask specific questions
      • Zoom session - OSMUS happy to host this to help explain the project
      • Ask for input on form design

Open Topic Discussion

  • Rendering (some comments from TJ)
    • worth discussing the various methods by which non-system (unofficial) trails can be subordinate to system (official) trails.
      • Symbology
      • Scale visibility
      • Labeling
      • Not including them
      • Other?
    • Examples of what these look like
      • S&R
      • Recreational trail
      • etc.
  • What other trail data is out there that ISN'T in the existing overlays
    • Many agencies don't have all their trails mapped.

April 6th Meeting

Attendees (pls add your name)

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US board
  2. Tony Cannistra, Gaia GPS
  3. Daniela Waltersdorfer, OpenStreetMap US Board
  4. Jim McAndrew (osm: jimmyrocks, National Park Service nps)
  5. Kevin Kenny ke9tv - OSM mapper and hiker, Upstate New York
  6. Doug Wilder - NPS
  7. TJ Broom, USFS (from the forest!)
  8. Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  9. Martijn van Exel (OSM: mvexel, MapRoulette)
  10. Zeke Farwell (OSM: ezekielf)
  11. Tod Fitch (OSM: n76, OSM mapper hiker, Southern California)
  12. Kevin Massey

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. SOTMUS recap

Notes (pls help co-create!)

  • Diane shows Tasking Manager pilot project, see link below.
  • Diane recaps trails lightning talk and BoF session
    • General sentiment was one of support
    • presented and discussed applicable tags and proposed rendering decision tree (kudos Zeke) (see Google doc)
    • Much support for diagrams, wish for it to be incorporated into the OSM wiki
    • To access SOTMUS BoF Doc: tinyurl.com/twg-sotmus
  • Discussion about exact string formatting for operator tag value
    • Assuming that operator tag existing suggests that the trail is official regardless of value
    • Asked about concrete examples
      • Evactuation routes
      • Even / Odd opening days

  • Routes

    • At SOTMUS, questions arose about how to tag long trails such at the PCT. Because there are different data users out there, adding ref tags onto route relations AND on individual segments (multiples separated by semicolons) is the recommended practice.
    • Distinguish between route relations and overland routes that have no evidence on the ground
    • latter has no place in OSM? (Also a conversation on #trails slack) But also consider seasonal snowmobile / backcountry ski routes (don't tag as highway)

  • Width tag?

    • This topic came up in the #trails slack channel, but it isn't useful for rendering as it is too variable along a trail.

  • MapRoulette vs Tasking Manger - Pilot Project

  • PublicDomainMap Presentation - Slides

March 23rd Meeting

Attendees (pls add your name)

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US board
  2. TJ Broom, USFS
  3. Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  4. Zeke Farwell (OSM: ezekielf)
  5. Jim McAndrew (osm: jimmyrocks, National Park Service nps)
  6. Maggie Cawley, OpenStreetMap US
  7. Joe O'Brien (AllTrails)
  8. Emmi Laakso (AllTrails)
  9. Elizabeth McCartney, USGS National Digital Trails Project
  10. Tony Cannistra (tony@gaiagps.com), Gaia GPS
  11. Tatyana DiMascio
  12. Michael Potter, BLM
  13. Brian Sperlongano, OSM US board
  14. Kevin Kenny
  15. Mike Passo, American Trails
  16. Greg Rose
  17. Kevin Massey
  18. Chad Blevins, Locana
  19. Martijn van Exel

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Pilot project overview
  5. Blog post about pilot project
  6. Sharing messages for SOTMUS conference

Notes (pls help co-create!)

  • Many, if not most, 3rd party apps are relying on OSM as their base map
  • Pilot Project, three areas:
    • Lake Chelan (MapRoulette)
    • Icicle Creek & Alpine Wilderness (MapRoulette)
    • Leavenworth & Wenatchee (Tasking Manager)
    • MapRoulette bounces the editor from one trail to another that have been pulled into the project. The Tasking Manager presents a whole area to an editor with specific instructions (about trails).
    • MapRoulette task: https://maproulette.org/browse/projects/47732
    • Overpass query for finding "undertagged" trails: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1h6v
    • Tasking manager task: https://tasks.openstreetmap.us/projects/298
    • Pilot will be kept to this group and we'll do a 'lessons learned' before expanding
    • Fact finding mission - how rendering changes when the tagging is completed
  • Discussions about tagging still present (3 classes enough?, informal = yes being desire lines, etc.) The pilot project should highlight where the tagging structure works or doesn't.
  • SOTMUS - the information sharing is going to be describing the existence of the Trail Working Group and what we're trying to accomplish.

March 9th Meeting

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US board
  2. Maggie Cawley, OSM US
  3. Jim McAndrew (osm: jimmyrocks, National Park Service nps)
  4. Zeke Farwell
  5. Greg Matthews
  6. TJ Broom, FS
  7. Martijn van Exel (trail wanderer / rider)
  8. Jake Low (OSM: jake-low)
  9. Tony Cannistra (Gaia GPS - tony@gaiagps.com)
  10. Elliott Plack
  11. Andrew Duff - NPS
  12. Doug Wilder - NPS
  13. Davey
  14. TJ Broom
  15. Christie McDonald - NPS

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Discuss setting up a rendering pilot / goals

Notes (pls help co-create!)

  • proposed tagging supported by all at the last call
  • discussed concern with discouraged tag
  • potentially ad discouraged:by or something (source:discouraged??), or a note
  • acknowledged that this is a "squishy" zone
  • sometimes there will be maps in situ that indicate discouraged use
  • suggest using MapRoulette tasks and write guidelines for that task with help from everyone in the group
  • interested in seeing the renderings from the pilot
  • pilot question: what does the rendering look like if we fully use the existing tagging scheme?
  • discussion on informal and operator tags
  • link to OSM based hiking maps
  • Source for authoritative trails as a starting point. USGS aggregated. TJ may have something specific and more up to date for USFS. https://partnerships.nationalmap.gov/arcgis/rest/services/USGSTrails/MapServer

Pilot Area

  • USFS
  • Suggested Pilot Area Okanogan-Wenatchee NF, Wenatchee River RD
  • the area around the towns of Wenatchee and Leavenworth WA
  • Lake Chelan, which is an NPS unit
  • https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=11/47.4692/-120.6065
  • Phase 1 Pilot: Start small with this group -
  • Phase 2 Pilot: use MapRoulette with external participants and larger area

February 23 Meeting

Attendees (pls add your name)

  1. Maggie Cawley, OpenStreetMap US
  2. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US board
  3. Jim McAndrew
  4. Jake Low (OSM jake-low)
  5. TJ Broom, USFS
  6. Kevin Kenny ke9tv OSM mapper, Upstate NY
  7. Joe O'Brien, AllTrails
  8. Greg Matthews, USGS
  9. Elizabeth McCartney, USGS
  10. Tatyana
  11. Davey
  12. Kevin M
  13. Christie
  14. Brian S

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions if new folks
  2. Announcements
    • SOTMUS - Program has "Birds of a Feather" about this TWG on Saturday, Apr 2nd 10:45am - not too late to buy tickets (OSM US members get a discount)
    • Flickr photo repository - reminder to share
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Binning general access levels
  5. Feedback on suggested tagging
  6. Outreach - per Greg's outline below?
  7. Next Steps
    • Move forward with rendering examples
    • Pilot with a USFS region?

Notes (pls help co-create!)

Tagging Discussion

  • Best practice to render official trails: Use presence of operator tag
  • The middle ground of social trails: access = discouraged
    • Is this sufficient to render all of the cases for reducing use? (safety, environmental degradation, etc.)
    • Purpose is to allow entities like USFS to minimize traffic on a trail w/o completely closing it. Full access to USFS land makes this necessary.
    • Best to keep the tagging as simplistic as possible and not give too many options.
    • OSM data structure allows for building nuance on this discouraged classification later if needed
    • There wasn't time to take an official vote on approving the tagging structure as is, but mood was it'll work!

Outreach to Agencies (from Greg Matthews)

Step 1 - OSM Trails committee reviews outreach document (Text is also below)
Step 2 - Federal Stakeholders to discuss topic with (National Trails System Council and National Digital Trails stakeholders)

Discussion Topic

OpenStreetMap (OSM) Trails Working Group is soliciting feedback from the National Trails System Council and other federal stakeholders for a discussion on “official” vs “Non-Official” trails in OSM. Our goals are to:

  • Inform federal stakeholders about the attempt to identify official trails within OSM.
  • Provide a demonstration how official trails might be rendered in a mobile application.
  • Provide an opportunity for federal agencies to provide feedback on how official vs non-official trails are displayed.
Background
  • Many outdoor recreation applications use volunteer contributed OSM trails to display trails.
  • OSM data is built collectively by a global volunteer community, so it may show trails not part of the “official” land management agency trail system.
  • Because volunteers are mapping “what they see on the ground,” trails submitted to OSM may be social/illegal trails that can impact wildlife, degrade natural resources, or cause issues with safety/emergency services.
  • The OSM Trails group includes volunteers, trail advocates, trail application developers, and staff from several federal agencies. They came together to discuss federal agency concerns over unofficial trails showing up in OSM and trail applications. The group is exploring options on how the community can differentiate between official and non-official trails while at the same time maintaining the integrity of the OSM mapping community.
  • A single solution across the federal space is desirable because agency by agency solutions would be difficult to implement and can be inconsistent with agencies.
Potential Solutions
  • The OSM Trails group has discussed the option of tagging all “official trails” within OSM by making authoritative trails available as an overlay.
  • Once an official federal trails overlay is available, existing OSM trails that coincide with official trails could be tagged as “authoritative” or “official.”
  • Mapping / application companies that rely on OSM trails can then decide how to render trails, possibly showing “official” trails differently than other OSM trails or add details in the trail description
Discussion
  • Show options/examples of rendered trails based on tagging.
  • Do land management agency trail leads want to provide any feedback or help develop a convention or best practice that can optionally be applied by OSM or trail applications?
  • Is there one agency, perhaps USFS that would like to work with OSM Trails to demonstrate a best practice for rendering USFS official trails?
  • Would any agency trail advisors like to join the OSM Trails Council discussion?

February 9 Meeting

Attendees

  1. Maggie Cawley, OpenStreetMap US
  2. Tod Fitch
  3. TJ Broom, USFS
  4. Doug Wilder, NPS
  5. Joe O'Brien, AllTrails
  6. Jake Low
  7. Kevin Kenny ke9tv OSM mapper in Upstate NY
  8. Andrew Duff
  9. Greg Rose
  10. Davey
  11. Greg Matthews
  12. Martijn van Exel
  13. Nathan Proudfoot (Natfoot) OSM Mapper in WA
  14. Chad Blevins
  15. Kevin Massey
  16. Elizabeth McCartney, USGS
  17. Zeke Farwell

Agenda

  1. Welcome & introductions (new folks here, yay!)
  2. Announcements
  3. Review of last meeting
  4. Continue the tagging discussion
    • Question from last week: How do land managers want un-authorative trails rendered given that these trails exist in the data?
  5. Next Steps
    • define levels of access and nuance
    • review the suggested tagging on the wiki to talk about next time
    • outreach as Greg M suggested

Notes

Trail tagging structure wish list

  • covers all the bases that exist on the ground (define levels of access and provide examples) - using a numerical system?
    • closed trails
    • social/nonsystem/non-designated
    • designated
    • illegal
  • 3rd party apps can render them 'appropriately' in relation to official trails
  • a workable solution that invites consensus
  • ties to a (not yet existing) system for providing authoritative trail data as a reference for mappers
  • a system that is open for feedback
  • A single solution across the federal space is desirable because agency by agency solutions would be difficult to implement and can be inconsistent with agencies.
  • rendering prevents accidental use - akin to road structure
  • should the degree of restriction align with visibility? or a different logic?

Authoritative trails sources:

January 26th meeting

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz
  2. Jake Low
  3. Kevin Kenny (ke9tv) OSM mapper, semi-retired engineer, New York
  4. Tod Fitch
  5. Maggie Cawley
  6. Zeke Farwell
  7. TJ Broom, FS
  8. Chad Blevins (Locana)
  9. Doug Wilder, NPS
  10. Brian Sperlongano
  11. Greg Matthews, USGS
  12. Adam Franco
  13. Christie McDonald
  14. Jim McAndrew
  15. Andrew Duff
  16. Joe O'Brien, AllTrails

Agenda

  1. Welcome & quick intros if new folks

  2. Announcements

  3. OSM overview by Jake

  4. Trail examples

  5. Tagging Discussion

  6. Sharing sources of Fed Land Mgmt agency trails data for reference

  7. Next Meeting Ideas

    • Feb 9
    • Continue tagging discussion

Open Discussion

  • Proposal topic for next meeting: How do land managers want un-authorative trails rendered given that these trails exist in the data?

Tagging thoughts and notes (add yours!)

  • "Can we set a default tag of 'not authorized?'"
    • Joe from AllTrails - The concept of a default tag is really important for us. If the impact of a default tag would be to dramatically reduce the amount of trail segments visible to the public, it will be more difficult for us to support and implement that. Gradual change over time, via active tagging of problem areas, is likely preferred.

January 12th meeting

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz
  2. Maggie Cawley
  3. Jake Low
  4. Tony Cannistra (Gaia GPS)
  5. Joe O'Brien (AllTrails)
  6. Elizabeth McCartney (USGS)
  7. Zeke Farwell, OSM mapper from Vermont, ezekielf
  8. Doug Wilder, NPS
  9. Jim McAndrew (osm: jimmyrocks, National Park Service nps)
  10. Chad Blevins (Critigen)
  11. Greg Matthews
  12. Christie McDonald
  13. Andrew Duff
  14. TJ Broom, USFS
  15. Jake Coolidge
  16. Greg Rose
  17. Tod Fitch
  18. Kevin Kenny, OSM mapper from Upstate New York, ke9tv

Agenda

  1. Welcome & intros if new folks
  2. Recap of last meeting
  3. Updates
    • Blog post sent
    • State of the Map (SOTMUS) Conference submission
  4. Next Steps
  5. Next Meeting Jan 26 - swan dive into tagging and sharing examples

Meeting Notes (pls help take notes if you'd like)

  • Blog post

  • Open Discussion

    • need for education for mappers and land managers / GIS community
    • create some kind of feedback loop
    • can create a chain of communication - based on the person involved with trails at each park -
    • need for documentation that will make land managers feel heard and included, mappers understand intent and process, and ways for people to continue to engage in the conversation
    • Tony still want to talk about how datasets overlay at a future meeting?
    • Trails WG Group in Flickr - add screen captures/images here
    • Render testing
      • Suggested areas: SE Utah / Great Smokey Mtns / COTREX
      • Both Gaia and AllTrails are hoping to have examples ready to share at SOTMUS

  • State of the Map US

    • April 1st-3rd in Tucson, AZ
    • Lightning Talk + Birds of a Feather submitted

  • Example area: Colchester Pond & Indian Brook Park, VT. Unofficial trails are mapped between them.

December 15 meeting

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap U.S. Board and longtime trail user
  2. Tod Fitch
  3. Maggie Cawley
  4. TJ Broom, USFS
  5. Greg Matthews, USGS
  6. Tatyana DiMascio, USGS
  7. Jake Low, OSM mapper (username: jake-low)
  8. Tony Cannistra, Maps at Gaia GPS / Outside
  9. Chad Blevins (Critigen)
  10. Jim McAndrew (osm: jimmyrocks, National Park Service nps)
  11. Joe O'Brien (AllTrails)
  12. Doug Wilder, NPS
  13. Stephen Cerqueira (Critigen)
  14. Elizabeth McCartney, USGS, National Digital Trails
  15. Johanna Taylor (Critigen)
  16. Brian Sperlongano
  17. Daniel Castro
  18. Elliot Plack
  19. Andrew Duff
  20. Greg Rose
  21. Jake Coolidge
  22. Martijn van Exel

Agenda

  1. Welcome & intros if new folks
  2. Recap of last meeting
  3. Draft blog post (includes goals and workflow) - link
  4. Open Discussion
  5. Group submission for State of the Map US? Talk + BoF
    • Conference info: 2022.stateofthemap.us
    • Concise Statement to describe TWG goal
      • "Enable and promote proper trail mapping on public lands."
  6. Next Steps
  7. Next Meeting

Meeting Notes

  • Blog post next steps
    • finalize language
    • identify places to share the post
    • include visual example of what we're talking about
    • do we include participants of WG?
    • include links to education/mapping resources
    • Try to finish by next Tuesday for inclusion in OSM US Newsletter
  • Gaia is working on rendering social trails. No timeline
  • All Trails isn't as far as Gaia, but looking at how to style lines differently
  • DEI concerns
  • Mapping Ethics in OSM - Are they clear? Does OSM just provide data or do we also try to have a curation role?
  • Tony happy to talk about how datasets overlay

Candidate mapping areas for analysis

  • identify differences in policy, terrain, ownership, official map data availability, urban vs destination parks
  • perhaps a few places to highlight above differences
  • revisit area from the initial meeting (Southeast Utah)
  • Great Smokey Mountains
  • Colorado has a pretty solid dataset (I think) that spans “official” trails on FS, NPS, county, city, land trusts, etc. via the COTREX dataset

People who should should be contacted

  1. Brenda Yankoviak, brenda.yankoviak@usda.gov
  2. Carin Farley, BLM, cfarley@blm.gov
  3. Krista Sherwood, NPS, krista_sherwood@nps.gov
  4. Peter Bonsall, NPS, peter_bonsall@nps.gov
  5. Peter Tomczik, FWS, peter_tomczik@fws.gov
  6. Heidi Forrest Trail Coordinator (Hforrest@patc.net)
  7. Other small hiking clubs or areas in general like https://www.patc.net/
  8. Dennis Byrd, BLM, dbyrd@blm.gov
  9. Mike Passo, American Trails, mikepasso@americantrails.org
  10. Leave No Trace

Notes From Slack threads

  • Having a standard for what qualifies as a name
  • route relation convention

December 1, 5-6pm EDT

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap U.S. Board and trail addict
  2. Joe O'Brien, AllTrails Program Manager for Park Partnerships
  3. Kevin Kenny, kennykb@acm.org, OSM user ke9tv, from Upstate New York, hiker and mapper of public land
  4. Zeke Farwell, OSM mapper from Vermont, ezekielf
  5. Elliott Plack, osm: ElliottPlack, trail mapping enthusiast, consults for Maryland DNR on trail mapping
  6. Maggie Cawley, OSM US ED
  7. Greg Matthews, USGS
  8. Martijn van Exel (OSM US Board, outdoors person, trail mapper mvexel)
  9. Jim McAndrew (osm: jimmyrocks, National Park Service nps)
  10. Jake Low, hiker and trail mapper (OSM username: jake-low)
  11. Chad Blevins, critigen
  12. Andy Duff, NPS
  13. Greg Rose, OSM mapper & freelancer from Seattle area 'Greg_Rose'
  14. TJ Broom, USFS

Agenda

  1. Welcome & intros if new folks
  2. Recap of last meeting
  3. Draft blog post (includes goals and workflow) - link
  4. Group submission for State of the Map US? Talk + BoF
  5. Next Steps
  6. Next Meeting December 15

Notes (please help take some!)

all the smart things ___ said.
Recap…
Three focus areas in order of focus:

  1. Communication
    • about the WG efforts
    • later, around what we did & education around mapping
  2. Tagging
    • Collect a corpus of images of places where we create solutions with better tagging+renderings
    • consider all tagging variables when creating guidance. Considering Diversity and Inclusion such as native lands, physical mobility, etc.
  3. Technical
    • implementation (presets, tiger-ish overlay, imports)

SOTMUS Panel / Talks / BoF

Diane happy to moderate - who is in?

More about Trail Classification…

NPS, USGS, etc. only map official trails.

Draft blog post

  • add example rendering comparisons. Same location (could be fictional). one with all trails same line style. one with official vs unofficial rendered differently. perhaps also private/no access trails with third line style.
  • Lets use this to get other people's feedback and involvement

Feedback

Question: Do the apps have ways for users to give feedback on whether a trail exists legally? -MvE

  • Most apps do not
  • Mapbox has an open feedback option that can be hard to triage
  • Hard to tell on the ground, suggestion that it is more appropriate from a management agency to decide

Note from US Forest service: 99% of official (system) trails mapped (although there may be errors in centerline alignments, OSM can be a helpful refrence in correcting these errors), so if a trail is not in there, likely not to be an official trail. The 1% are typically new and USFS staff on the ground would know whether a trail is legit or not

Seasonal/Temporary closures

USGS is interested in short-term closures but it may be outside of the scope of this group. Something may emerge to help handle that elsewhere.

Action Items:
  • Finish blog for enticing others to join and be aware of this TWG
  • Use Flickr and wiki for building an example library of places where rendering is problematic (or perfect)
  • Create concise position statement to potentially present at SOTMUS

November 10, 5-6pm EDT

Attendees

  1. Maggie Cawley OSM US
  2. Kevin Kenny, kennykb@acm.org, OSM user ke9tv, from Upstate New York, hiker and mapper of public land
  3. Zeke Farwell, OSM mapper from Vermont, ezekielf
  4. Jake Low, hiker and trail mapper (OSM username: jake-low)
  5. Jim McAndrew (osm: jimmyrocks, National Park Service nps)
  6. Lindsay B, OSM mapper, Georgia, bobwz
  7. Tony Cannistra, Maps at Gaia GPS
  8. Joe O'Brien, AllTrails
  9. Elizabeth McCartney, USGS National Digital Trails
  10. TJ Broom, USFS Trail Planner
  11. Minh Nguyễn, OSMUS
  12. Doug Wilder, NPS
  13. Andy Duff, NPS
  14. Greg Rose, OSM mapper & freelancer from Seattle area 'Greg_Rose'
  15. Daniela Waltersdorfer, OSMUS
  16. Elliott Plack, osm: ElliottPlack, trail mapping enthusiast, consults for Maryland DNR on trail mapping

Agenda

  1. Welcome & intros if new folks
  2. Recap of last meeting
  3. Develop a workplan and workflow to accomplish goal as set in last meeting?
    • Goal is to create a universal (U.S. focus) tagging system that can be applied regardless of land manager identity - this would alleviate dealing with property boundaries in rendering
    • Tagging - outlined. Need to be defined? how do we choose?
    • coordinated tagging/mapping campaign? what map sources?
  4. Next Steps

Notes

What are the outstanding questions?

  • how does an armchair mapper know what trails are "official trails" open to the public?
    • USGS aggregated official trails
    • See other links from agencies in previous meeting notes
  • how do we get mappers to map the way 'we' decide?
    • multipronged approach: proposal for wiki doc, wiki page on process, comms, OSM US education campaign, iD preset, JOSM, communication
  • how does it work with the tiger overlay red highlight? could it be used the same way with a trails dataset?
  • what makes a trail official?
    • there is a sign
    • it's on the official print map from the land manager (paper or posted at the trailhead)
    • its in a government dataset
  • how can we also improve the gov datasets when a mapper on the ground sees something incorrect?
  • can we alter iD to include a feedback loop?
    • Something like the TIGER missing roads layer but for trails

Next Steps

  • Proposal of the process - tell people what we're going to do / define our workflow, goals, ways for people to plug in, place for feedback
  • Tagging. Possible tags
  • map osm data to authoritative data
  • assessment of what is there and how that matches 'real life' and authoritative data
  • Communications
    • OSM US blog post - state the problem, let people know we are working on it (Maggie to start, others to help draft)
    • Wiki page
  • Can we phase it? Is there a way to limit the scope?
    • through mapping campaigns / a pilot
  • Make sure we talk about timeliness and the importance of collaboration with NPS
  • Create a set of resources for people to go to - it takes time for data to get to the national level dataset - most timely data will come from land management agency

October 27, 5-6pm EDT

Attendees

  1. Diane Fritz, OSM U.S. Board
  2. Rob Chohan, Trails, static maps, mobile @ RobLabs.com
  3. Joe O'Brien, AllTrails
  4. Kevin Kenny, kennykb@acm.org, OSM user ke9tv, hiker and mapper of public land
  5. Jake Low, hiker and trail mapper (OSM username: jake-low)
  6. Brian Sperlongano ZeLonewolf hiker and hobbyist
  7. Tony Cannistra, Gaia GPS Maps (tony@gaiagps.com)
  8. Greg Matthews, USGS (gdmatthews@usgs.gov)
  9. Jim McAndrew, NPS/CSU JimmyRocks
  10. Davey
  11. Zeke Farwell, Vermont, ezekielf

Agenda

  1. Welcome & intros if new folks

  2. Recap of last meeting

    • Intro of wiki page
    • Discussion of trail classifications by USFS and NPS

  3. Possible Working Group Objectives

    • Create crosswalk between official trail classifications and tagging
    • Build a tagging structure that's simple to implement, but rich enough for nuances
    • Create communication protocols/structures for ease of future interaction
    • Exploration of apps helping trail data quality
    • Others?

  4. Communication

    • Established channels for OSM
      • wiki (global reach - present project has U.S. focus)
      • osmus slack channel (U.S.)
      • Talk-Us (global)
    • Structure for long-term interaction with land managers and app developers
      • Assess need
      • What should it be

  5. Official / Unofficial trail tagging

    • Thoughts on this schema?
      • operator=* on official trails
        • should presence of operator imply informal=no?
      • informal=yes on unofficial trails
      • access=* (including access=discouraged for lawful but deprecated routes)
      • What is needed for us to come to "agreement" on the above?
    • What highway=* values should we strive to have 100% coverage on within park boundaries? (ie all ways of these type have either operator or informal)
      • Not all highway=* ways are important to tag as official or not (ie paved roads are surely official)
      • path footway track bridleway ?
    • Practical bits of operator=* trail tagging & edge cases
      • Are there situations where trails have multiple operators?
      • Should the operator=* of trail ways always match that of the operator=* of the park boundary which contains the trail?
      • Other gotchas with operator names?
    • Standardization of operator=* names
      • Should be "US National Park Service" / "United States National Park Service" / "National Park Service" ?

  6. Other Tags Which Can Be Used To Help Land Managers

    • What distinctions do land managers want to make between trails other than official/unofficial?
    • Is there a baseline of access=* related tags we want on each trail?

  7. Authoritative Trails Datasets

  8. How can we help each other?

    • Implement tagging that gives land managers and mapping app developers flexibility to render trails appropriately
    • Landmanagers making trail closures more obvious to trail users and mappers
      • feasibility of signage: urban-proximate vs backcountry

Thoughts and Comments:

  • Please enter ideas here!
    • Can integrating local mtb clubs and the like form a bridge for long term communication? This could build the US mapper community and our relationship with land managers.

Summary of some discussion points:

  • Goal is to create a universal (U.S. focus) tagging system that can be applied regardless of land manager identity - this would alleviate dealing with property boundaries in rendering
  • operator tag: don't make 3rd party apps deal with distinguishing different operators. Perhaps have a system where if this is present, the trail is official
  • It would be good to construct rendering examples showing official trails and social trails (example of the goal)
  • access = discouraged could add a lot of flexibility in the tagging system over just access = no
  • Having a source of official data for an import project is desirable.
  • Conflation questions: linear conflation tools aren't as good as point and area, but it was noted that OSM data tends to have better geospatial accuracy, so a possible import project could focus on tagging.

Schwartz, F., Taff, B. D., Lawhon, B., & VanderWoude, D. (2018). Mitigating undesignated trail use: The efficacy of messaging and direct site management actions in an urban-proximate open space context. Environmental Management (New York), 62(3), 458-473. https://doi.org/10.1007/s00267-018-1054-1

Kickoff Meeting - October 13, 2021 5-6pm EDT

Attendees

  1. Maggie Cawley, OSM US
  2. Brian Sperlongano, Rhode Island
  3. Tony Cannistra, Maps at Gaia GPS (tony@gaiagps.com)
  4. Zeke Farwell, Vermont, OSM user ezekielf, ezekielf@gmail.com
  5. Joe O'Brien, Colorado (AllTrails)
  6. Brenda Yankoviak, USFS
  7. Jake Low, (OSM mapper in WA, username: jake-low)
  8. Elizabeth McCartney, USGS National Digital Trails Project (emccartney@usgs.gov)
  9. Daniel Himmelstein @dhimmel, mapper & trail explorer
  10. Martijn van Exel (mvexel) OSM US board, Salt Lake City UT
  11. Kevin Kenny, upstate New York, kevin.b.kenny@gmail.com, OSM user 'ke9tv'
  12. Tod Fitch, California
  13. Lindsay Barnes, Georgia
  14. Diane Fritz, OSM US board, outdoor addict
  15. Davey
  16. Greg Matthews, USGS
  17. Keri Nelson, backcountry coordinator, NPS
  18. Minh Nguyen, OSM-US board member, Mapbox
  19. Jess Beutler, OSM-US program director
  20. Garrett Villanueva, USFS
  21. Andrew Duff, National Park Service, geospatial data architect
  22. Lee France,Sandpoint, Idaho Gaia GPS
  23. Doug Wilder, National Park Service
  24. Jim McAndrew, OSM Fan, National Park Service Web Maps, Colorado State Univ Employee

Agenda

  1. Welcome & Introductions (name, where you're based, what you're hoping to achieve with this group)
  2. Background / talk through the wiki work
  3. Define Working Group Objectives
  4. Next Steps
    • Set a regular meeting time & frequency

Notes

Overview of wiki page that Brian + Zeke et al. started

  • Writing the wiki could benefit from more context from the land manager community
  • How do land managers think about classifying trails? Do OSM tagging schemas match those used by managers?
  • Zeke offers to try and answer any questions from land managers about how the ecosystem of maps based on OSM works, or why certain weird OSM things are the way they are. Contact on the OSM US Slack or by email (ezekielf@gmail.com).

Trail classes for USFS

  • Trail classes from 1 - 5, starting at minimal path to fully developed
  • Official trails go through a NEPA process
  • No classes for social trails are presently defined
  • NFS Trail Classes defined - PDF & with photos
  • NPS Classes

Objectives / Ideas / Questions (pls add thoughts!)

  • Better define 'trail'–- create more tags!!
  • How do land management agencies "think about" interacting w/ OSM from an authoritative data perspective?
  • What datasets are available?
  • Need to change the mindset that "If I can see it, I can map it." Or at least modify it so that a "pathway" is classified (new tags!)
  • education around mapping and its impact / better understanding of ways data are used
  • Is there research on human behavior when seeing official vs unofficial trails on a map. Do people avoid them, or no?

Challenges / Problem Statements

(add your thoughts!)

  • (Martijn) Is this a data entry challenge or a data consumer challenge? Are those even different things?
  • (Martijn) Devising a tagging scheme that is easy to use, yet has enough 'resolution' to be useful.
  • (Elizabeth McCartney) Related to Martijn's comment above, better understanding trail classes, etc.(Brenda Y.) and how they related to tagging schemes may be helpful. There is an effort to standardize Federal trail schemas across agencies.
  • (Lindsay B) How much should be mapped? When are social trails mapped instead of ignored or deleted?
  • (Martijn) Can we involve local (hiking, outdoors, MTB) groups?
  • (Martijn) What role can existing mobile apps that use OSM trail data play in helping improve trail data quality?
  • (Zeke) There is a strong anti-establishment contingent in the OSM mapper community that does not appreciate attempts to censor what is allowed to be mapped. There was a smaller effort similar to this one in 2016 that didn't go very far due to the backlash it encountered. If we choose our words carefully and deliberately I think we can avoid this framing, but it is a challenge to be aware of.

Conversation spaces

Links

Trails in OpenStreetMap - Public Discussion 9.22.21 8-9pm EDT

This OpenStreetMap US public discussion focuses on OSM trails data, which has been an ongoing discussion across a variety of contexts. This hour is meant to be only the beginning of bringing all interested parties into the same room.

Overview
The meeting will begin with a round of introductions. Keri Nelson, Backcountry Coordinator| National Park Service Southeast Utah Group, will then present a few case studies of OSM trail data leading hikers off trail into unsafe and sensitive habitat. After Keri's presentation we will have time for a discussion about how to better support responsible recreation.

If you have questions during the presentation, please write them in the chat to be answered post-presentation. Also please be sure to mute when you are not speaking and please be respectful of others. Here is a link to the OSM US Code of Conduct

Attendees (please add your name)

  1. Maggie Cawley, OpenStreetMap US maggie@openstreetmap.us
  2. Jess Beutler, OpenStreetMap US
  3. Thomas Colson, NPS
  4. Brenda Yankoviak, National Trail Program Manager for the US Forest Service
  5. Zeke Farwell, hiker & trail mapper
  6. Tony Cannistra, Maps at Gaia GPS (tony@gaiagps.com for discussion + questions on our use + rendering of OSM!)
  7. Alex Weech, hiker & trail mapper
  8. Gita Urban-Mathieux, Federal Liaison, National Geospatial Program, USGS
  9. Diane Fritz, OpenStreetMap US
  10. Jake Low (jake-low), hiker and mapping enthusiast
  11. Tom Parent (TomPar), citizen mapper out of Belmont, MA
  12. John Czaplewski, likes mapping trails
  13. Greg Matthews - USGS
  14. Philip Molloy - OSM mapper in northern New England
  15. Daniel Himmelstein - explorer, data scientist, trail mapper
  16. Elizabeth McCartney, US Geological Survey, National Digital Trails project (emccartney@usgs.gov)
  17. Martijn van Exel, SLC Utah, OSM US board member, hiker / bikepacker, trail mapper, mvexel@gmail.com

Agenda

  1. Welcome & Introductions (in 15 seconds or less please tell us your name & what motivated you to join the conversation)
  2. Presentation from Keri Nelson, Backcountry Coordinator, National Park Service SE Utah Group
  3. Open discussion
  4. Next Steps

Questions (please feel free to add any you have here)

  1. What is the history of NPS involvment with OSM?
  2. Is it worth introducing a new tag to mark "official" trails? It would need to be rendered.
  3. Or perhaps a tag like https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:mtb:scale or https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:piste:difficulty for informal, but acceptable trails
  4. Is there data on how often different resources are used? OSM data is only as important as how it is rendered
  5. Does everyone completely appreciate the conceptual difference between OSM the "database" and renderers that use OSM data? +1
  6. Does everyone appreciate how third-party mapping products suck-in OSM data, create their own private databases, then make their own render choices? Gaia/CalTOPO, etc are NOT real-time representations of OSM data.
  7. Have you used OSMCha to monitor areas?
  8. What can we do to make OSM more accessible or interesting to the people on the ground?
  9. Strava heatmap is also an interesting resource that can show how actively used a trail is.
  10. USGS aggregated authoritative trails - maybe at least the fed ones could be used as a reference to tag appropriate OSM trails as "official". Then styles could opt to only use the trails with the "official" tag. Greg [Trail Explorer: https://usgs.maps.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=d3c32c758316402dbd8292b7ffea720e]
  11. Can National Parks partner with local mappers to help curate trails in a safe and accurate manner? The lack of communication and direct involvement of parks with OSM seems like some of the past issue.
  12. The trails in Canyonlands (and GRSM) and the trails for those parks are correct in the official (authoritative) data sources. These official data sources are available through the USGS above noted in #10 as well as the NPS. We have discusses the idea of using these trails and putting together a mapping challenge (maproulette/tasking manager) to get tags (such as informal=yes) to be closer to what is correct.

Notes

Presentation will be recorded and posted to the OpenStreetMap US YouTube channel

The informal=yes tag is meant to be applied to social, informal, or unofficial trails. If we can get trail map apps to render "trails" with this tag differently or not at all that would be a good step.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:informal
(This page would benefit from some of the material in tonight’s presentation and discussion.)

Next Steps:

  • Maggie will invite EVERYONE to fill out a poll for a trails working group meeting - if you are interested, please complete it. If not, no worries. Thanks for joining today!
  • Join the OSM US Slack - #trails channel - https://slack.openstreetmap.us/
Last changed by 
 
Maggie
2
1
2179
Published on HackMD