# “FAIRPoints ‘Ask Me Anything’ on Identifiers.”
* Date: 26-Jan-2023
* Zoom link:
* **Speakers & Moderators Bios:** https://hackmd.io/@Fairpoints/ama-pid-bios
* **Slack:** [shiny.link/F71wE](https://shiny.link/F71wE)
* **Sign-up to event series** 👉 https://www.lyyti.fi/reg/fairpoints_ama
* [Machine Centric Podcast-Christophe Blanchi ](https://podcast.polyneme.xyz/episodes/christophe-blanchi)
* [FAIRDataPodcast with Sven Bingert and Tibor Kálmán](https://anchor.fm/fairdatapodcast/episodes/Sven-Bingert-and-Tibor-Klmn-e1tlhd7/a-a96on7u)
## Links from presenters:
* [Maggie's slides](https://zenodo.org/record/7589205)
* [Matt Buy's slides](https://doi.org/10.5281/zenodo.7588800)
| Time (UTC) | Agenda | Speaker |
|:----------- |:----------------------------------------------- | ----------------------------- |
| 10:00-10:05 | Welcome, Housekeeping & introductions | Sara |
| 10:05-10:20 | FAIRPoints Introduction | Sara |
| 10:20-10:25 | Introducing Moderators | Sara |
| 10:25-10:35 | Patricia Herterich introducing Maggie Hellström | Juliane |
| 10:35-10:45 | Natasha Simmons introducing Peter Wittenberg | Juliane |
| 10:45-10:55 | Nabil Ksibi introducing Matthew Buys | Juliane |
| 10:55-11:00 | BREAK | Sara |
| 11:00-11:10 | Sara El-Gebali introducing Natasha Simmons | |
| 11:10 | Q&A from audience | Mod Juliane, and all |
| to 11:50 | Q&A from moderators | Mods all |
| 11:50-12:00 | Wrap-up | Sara |
## Code of Conduct reminder
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* Be patient, allow others to speak, and use the zoom reactions & chat if you would like to voice something.
* See also our [participation guidelines](https://www.fairpoints.org/participation_guides/).
🗣 Name / 🐸 Pronouns (optional)/ 📣 Role (optional)/🌎 What's your national dish?
❓ *Please add any questions you might have during the course of the session here:*
1. Maggie What's a "non-data object"? How do you know? I hear "code as data", "workflows as data", etc. Does it matter for identifiers
- software, models, digital representation of physical things
- peter: needs PIDs for (dynamic) *services*, not just ("static") "data"/"objects"
2. More of a comment, thanks: FAIRsharing describes [31 identifier schemas](https://fairsharing.org/search?fairsharingRegistry=Standard&recordType=identifier_schema&page=1) at the moment - we'd love to hear from all you if we've missed any (I'm fairly sure we don't have 100% coverage yet! ;-) )
3. Maggie - how can we enable the use of identifiers in your scenario where you have many research objects and create those links/relationships between objets
4. Peter - are DONA PIDs portable? Can one move providers (MPAs? resolvers?)?
- peter: yes. DONA handles prefix level, but not metadata element level, which is delegated to providers.
- peter: interoperable schemas important. compare handle system with e.g. https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/ ("DIDs")
5. Peter - why do most DOI records only use the URL metadata field? e.g. https://doi.org/10.1038/sdata.2016.18?noredirect
6. Question for Natasha . . . It’s rightly considered best practice to associate multiple kinds of PIDS with a data item, e.g. a ROR, an ORCID and a DOI. Some PIDS seem to have some support for linking with other kinds of PIDS, but others don’t. Are you aware of any resources that provide an overview of the general state of play with regard to association of multiple kinds of PIDS, or could you point to resources that shed light on how specific PIDS support linking with other PIDS? Thanks in advance for your advice!
7. A question for Natasha --considered good practice to associate multiple identifiers with a particular item, e.g. a ROR, a . My question keeps gettin overriddedn (same as 7.)
* You might want to take a look at https://bioregistry.io/ which might have some of what you need, and indexes FAIRsharing metadata -Allyson
8. How do we get funders to fund boring sustainability for existing systems instead of continually funding shiny new stuff when existing systems are working and just need development/maintenance? This might mitigate the proliferation of multiple pids for one object, and abandoned projects
9. What is the expected economic burden of PIDs? I think DOIs are generally approx. $1 USD to register from e.g. DataCite and Crossref. Can this go lower? This sets a practical limit on PID granularity, no?
- matt: cost recovery basis (not US$1 per DOI, organisations have tiered fees), always free for researchers.
- peter: similar to cost model for "Internet access" - typically covered by institutions, not individuals
10. Natasha - what is the australian national PID *objective* that would be served by the strategy?
11. Natasha - Where can we find more info on the case studies?
- For anyone interested, here is a link to more information about the Australian PID cost-benefit analysis report and case studies included in that - https://ardc.edu.au/article/strategic-investment-in-identifiers-could-save-24-million-and-38000-person-days-per-year/
12. Anyone: Are there steps to follow when starting to create policy-strategy-implementation for PIDs in an organisation? Where do we start from, EOSC policy on one end (what else is there?) and the data and infrastructure that we have in the organisation. Plus study the use cases (question from above). Anything else?
13. Journal subscriptions are typically covered by instututions, not individual researchers, but this notably has had friction, given rise to the "open access" movement, etc. Is there similar risk for institution-based subscription to PID services?
Maggie Hellstrom's presentation
Everyone loves weird identifiers!
Globally Unique Persistent Identifiers GURPIs
IDs for people are crucial for disambiguation, one of the most difficult problems to solve in the scholcomm cycle (yay ORCID)
Identifiers for all research objects, early in the process
Collaboartion and being
Peter Wittenburg's presentation
Both speakers talk about identifiers fostering trust (is the identifier the right one, is it maintained, authentic, authorised, correctly contextualized, use)
Identifiers at the bottom of trust pyramid
Trust in identifiers - DONA example https://www.dona.net/ under ITU
Accountability and responsibility is key
Trust is not a technical issue, it's a social issue
PID is not a location
Matt Buy's presentation
Community, working towards solutions with community, sustainable infrastructure
Matt brings up infrastructure, which is a huge part of FAIR data
YES - the grant-funded structure builds in unsustainability.
Community of practice, making sure that infrastructure/services so streamlined for researchers
28 resource types - from samples and instruments to datsets and preprints
Supported scaling communities such as DMPs, IGSNs, arXiv
Registration, Public APIs, Dashboards for understa
Reliability, Transparency, Trust, Inclusivity
Notes on questions
Terminology! When talking about identifiers, we need to use consistent language and define what we mean by various concepts as we enter discussion
> If you haven't already watched the "Data Sharing and Management Snafu in 3 Short Acts" video, take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66oNv_DJuPc - this really illustrates why it is so important not only to curate research data in a sustainable way, but also to carefully record relevant metadata about research context, variables and persons involved...
PID journey - National Library, TROVE, ANDS
ANDS membership in DataCite
First identifier, DOIers community
ANDS organized CAUL leaders, Laurel Haak/ORCID - AUS ORCID Consortium - mandating ORCID, instead building agreed upon model/consortium - now AUS access forum
ARDC services - ORCID, RAID, ROR, Scholix, RDA, National PID strategies
More Brains - PIDs in AUS, strategic investment
Use of PIDs - Save $24M, 38K people hours
3 days per grant application - case study
9 case studies in RDA for national PID strategies
> For instance, I’m having conversations about how we enable the mining of identifiers from research publications so that it is common to us all… Matt mentioned this via the Wellcome project. https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/
> ASAP has one of the more advanced policy and workflow https://parkinsonsroadmap.org/open-access-policy/#
## Chat & Links:
11:43:25 From Maggie Hellström : Want to join the Research Data Alliance? It is free, simple and easy. All you need to do is fill in the form at https://www.rd-alliance.org/user/register! (Once a member, you can join any of the working or interest groups that you are interested in.)
11:43:38 From Paulina Dąbrowska : This works: https://www.cos.io/blog/strategy-for-culture-change
11:43:47 From Allyson Lister : I highly recommend joining the RDA - it's a fantastic community :)
11:44:19 From Donny Winston : This works: https://www.cos.io/blog/strategy-for-culture-change
11:44:31 From FAIR Points : RDA Speed Networking Event
Are you interested in meeting more people involved in research data?
11:58:38 From Maggie Hellström : If you haven't already watched the "Data Sharing and Management Snafu in 3 Short Acts" video, take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66oNv_DJuPc - this really illustrates why it is so important not only to curate research data in a sustainable way, but also to carefully record relevant metadata about research context, variables and persons involved...
12:25:01 From Matt Buys : Good point Peter. Researchers never pay for DOIs in the DataCite context
12:26:35 From Natasha Simons : ARDC pays for the cost of the DataCite DOIs for the Australian research sector (institutions use the service and mnt DOIs for free). Organisations pay to join the ORCID consitium. Yes, I agree we will address this model for all PIDs we agree to prioritise as part of our national PID strategy
12:26:58 From Juliane Schneider - Chicago : That one was mine! I'm at a US national laboratory and we use a funding system within the org, and competing projects/interests consume far too much of our time and effort
12:27:37 From Juliane Schneider - Chicago : You can't have a shiny dashboard with good, well constructed data!
12:27:58 From Chris Erdmann : I can jump in too… being at a funder now 🙂
12:28:22 From Peter Wittenburg : we told the Max Planck president that we need to make sure that researchers can refer back in their work to data older than 10 years etc and this needs to be made possible. Actually, one of our centers runs a PID server and the costs are very very low.
12:30:00 From Juliane Schneider - Chicago : We need to figure out a way to transfer the sell from the funder to the organization and make the org recognize the value and bring that project/service into the budget as a line item
12:30:02 From Peter Wittenburg : my guess is that we need to reduce of the costs per PID - we should be ready to pay for a lean PID service as a basis
12:30:17 From Juliane Schneider - Chicago : Once the funding ends
12:33:12 From Chris Erdmann : For instance, I’m having conversations about how we enable the mining of identifiers from research publications so that it is common to us all… Matt mentioned this via the Wellcome project.
12:35:49 From Chris Erdmann : ASAP has one of the more advanced policy and workflow https://parkinsonsroadmap.org/open-access-policy/#
12:38:05 From Matt Buys : 100% Natasha - demonstrating ROI to funders is critical
12:39:06 From Chris Erdmann : One of my ROI cases is actually via DataCite Commons ;)
12:42:26 From Chris Erdmann : https://www.w3.org/TR/did-core/
12:42:32 From Chris Erdmann : DIDs
12:43:13 From Juliane Schneider - Chicago : Make sure you document your metadata decisions!
12:46:41 From Natasha Simons : For anyone interested, here is a link to more information about the Australian PID cost-benefit analysis report and case studies included in that - https://ardc.edu.au/article/strategic-investment-in-identifiers-could-save-24-million-and-38000-person-days-per-year/
12:47:43 From Matt Buys : Grounding Indigenous Rights in DataCite metadata
12:48:04 From Chris Erdmann : Its interesting you bring up the TK labels Matt and I only know of one publisher Taylor and Francis that had a context part of the paper to record this information… but is it yet another thing we have to mine from papers that is not structured.
12:50:09 From Peter Wittenburg : Nabil: when we set up the archive for endangered languages of the world we needed to deal a lot with indigenous communities of course. But this did not had effects on the use of PIDs, but of course there were agreements on rights, on metadata concepts, etc. Important again was that everyone knew exactly which data item was meant.
12:50:37 From Chris Erdmann : @Natasha it was your work (and others) that helped with clearing up the PID landscape at the funder I’m at - thank you 🙂
12:51:05 From Maggie Hellström : Within the ENVRI Community (specifically the ENVRI-FAIR EU-funded project), we are working on developing recommendations for PID-related policies at the research/data producing organisation level; in a few months time we'll be publishing a deliverable report. (Initiated by Ari Asmi, and currently led by Keith Jeffery.) If you are interested in this, drop me an e-mail and I can let you know when the report becomes available.
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