###### tags: `Haus Party Live`
# HAUS Party LIVE! Notes (3/17/22)
Join us for 🎉 Haus Party Live 🎉 every Thursday at 2pm EST on the [DAOhaus Discord](https://discord.gg/daohaus)
- Felipe, TravisWyche, dekan, vanilladelphia, Bau
- Community Members from the Audience
***How do DAOs grow? What's the meaning of scale when it comes to amorphous and dynamic entities like DAOs?***
**What does scale mean to you?** It's more undefined than we hope, especially in DAOs.
Where does the DAO end and start?
This topic came out of the last conversation about democracy, which came out of the conversation about Anticapture. Self management structures and meditations on scale for internal structure that reflect out into the larger cultural structures that we live in also came out of those conversations.
What are the habits of scale, that we're bringing into this space?
Will our future abundance be secured by the up and to the right momentum?
What kinds of incentives might we contemplate as an alternative to that up and to the right scale concept? **How can we learn other kinds of organizational habits so it's not dependent on the unsustainable movement?**
### Scale and Structure
Rooted in our current experiences, as DAOhaus is scaling and being a part of other organizations, there's different levels of orgs or community with different kinds of structure. As they scale does the structure need to change to maintain? Does the org need to reflect on itself to see if it's current methods are working? Are there any red flags of things devolving into a structureless mess?
Is one person a DAO, do you need multiple signers, is it 100 people, is it the whole world? Is [dunbar's number](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number) the limit of DAO communities? Is there a limit?
Things start to fall apart if it's too difficult to have conversations and connection.
Should we have ways of fractalizing and should that be part of the process?
[THE TYRANNY of STRUCTURELESSNESS](https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm)
Without structure the loudest can get the most influence.
How do we think about the right kinds of scale for various applications?
As a local consideration, how do we move away from a universal or standard dunbar's number and towards an occilating dunbar's number, reflecting the needs of the community?
Cypto Twitter says flat orgs are stupid and DAOs aren't working and that [organizations should start centralized and then can move to decentralization](https://a16z.com/2020/01/09/progressive-decentralization-crypto-product-management/).
Some of how we handle scale is with technology, so some of the reflections from the 70's don't consider all the changes over the years.
It's a moving target to narrow down the numbers of how big a community is.
### Scale and Bias
What are we thinking about scale, what is scale, what are our biases related to that? Manufacturing - economies of scale and advantages of scale leads to the problems with business, like race to the bottom. Markenting - capturing market share and size related to competitors. Why do we want to do those things? Colonializim and crusades and taking over territories and exploitations and religious wars. Let's figure out better ways.
As an organization grows, and recieves trust and responsibility from the community, there is a need to scale, which comes with making and spending more money. Is there a need for prediction?
Scaling needs and strategies between different social systems are very different.
Uncomfortable bias: we often tend to see scaling and growth and pursuit as not good or desireable. Is this hypocritcal? We like it when eth goes up and when sentiment about DAOs improves. There is an inevitable tension.
Possitive sum game is not the only game.
**Be intentional and ask why.**
There can be good reasons for scale, but we have to start with the question of why.
Scaling dramatically increases coordination costs. If we're not prepared for that then Moloch wins.
Hold ourselves responsible in articulating an alternative.
We also need connectives, as a suggested alternative with collective.
🌱"Connectives deminish the need for ever bloating organizational membranes that are trying to eat each other up."🌱
### Scale and Narratives
Stewards of narratives and meaning.
There's potential cultural capture. Self interestedness can amount to an unchecked organizational ego failure.
How can we organized differetly and program our values into the protocols?
Scale values instead of organizations. Create a protocol with people who share similar values.
Maybe scale isn't as important. We're not trying to make a board happy.
NFT communities talk about the first 100 true fans. The value is in the true believers not necessarily going mainstream.
Organizations are transitory, fractonalized. Individuals in the organizations can allow for not everything growing at the same time. This requires unlearning.
Labor coordiation use case: relationships, like clients, partners and talent can all be members of a DAO, partners who pull resources for liquidity.
Find out what is the preconcieved notion of a term, before trying to design, conceptually.
When you first think about scale it seems like just adding more people. But is that necessarily true? Can you scale without growing into a huge group of people? What are the variables? Influence, revenue, values, relevance...
When the team grows past a certain point, consensus is no longer possible and the team is less agile. We start to imagine our worst fears. British Empire - how to communicate around the world - school system is based on interchangable people.
What kinds of skills would we want today if we have new values and intentions with scale?
Global conquering empire, like Jurasic park - instead of looking at whether we could, look at whether we should. Look at intentions and values and motivations.
### Scale and Design Mechanisms
Should limits be imposed on scale? Who decides those limits?
Are we going to design a mechanisim that allows for world domination over the DAO ecosystem?
Is there a more humble scale that we might identify as more alligned with our values?
The two pizza team - every internal team should be small enough that it can be fed with two pizzas.
Once we approach a certain threshold, the tensions of the larger group drag and distract and we want to honor each other's perspective while also feeling tension to focus on the development.
Emotional inteligence of the organization and the individuals
How to ensure that scale doesn't suppress the voices of the contributors who share in the pricipals that were scaling for?
Can't go all in on optimization without sacrificing values.
Insist that growth can happen if values are kept? But, the problem changes as a org is scaled. It can be done incrimentally. What are your pricipals and how do you know when they're being upheld?
Resolution movements and sense making in cycles. Demand constant attention. Stay with the trouble. As something grows, there's always going to be tension with being and becoming, or identity and relationship. To become you have to let go of what you are.
[A life well spent](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gckg5w01fLE&t=98s) - DAOist and Token Engineering - research on reward systems
Institutionalizing values? Use honor codes? As long as it's mutable and we can ragequit. Consider the incentive mechanisms.
🌱 "Your morals are my opportunity." 🌱 David Phelps
[Antifragile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifragile_(book)) - As we experience challenges we become stronger.
Let's learn from other organizations' challenges. We have history to look at.
### Scale and Success
Success Narratives: 🌱"What are the indexes of success that you're using to define whether you won or lost?"🌱
MetaFactory - you cannot compete with someone who's having fun.
A lot of the things American's care about, just aren't attractive to Europeans.
Tell the strongest story that effects the notion of success for the largest number of people - soft power.
Test strategies of the notions of success, like living with spiritual fullfillment, with integrity and dignity - professional idiot and accepting of what's rediculous.
Lets all be in kindergarten together. Childishness of not having to optimized and allowing quirk.
Don't forget to geek out.
Childishness isn't intended to describe immaturity, but instead innocence.
The game doesn't need to be competitive or rivalrous.
### Scale and Community
Founders of DAOhaus put their own funds in for shares. Then they invited more people in who requested share at a set price. Circles were created when there were about 10 people. Now the core team is 30-40 people and a much larger ecosystem. At each of the steps, structure was reassessed. Day 1, tried to be a DAO and have stuck to being a DAO, which is part of the success.
When pressed to scale, like challenger L1's, is like trying to populate the technical dream land, like putting irrigation in the desert.
How are people aligned?
Some really successful communities decide to DAO up, like Bankless went from podcasts to brand to followers to community to token. The culture of the community has served Bankless, with the fractionalized guilds. [Raid Guild](https://www.raidguild.org/) started as a DAO of a couple people and then grew.
When investors say here's $200,00 for you to have a meetup group, they want a huge return.
Community ran products that recieve bags of money have changed the community, like cash grabs. Is money influence community influence?
The DAO narrative is being owned by the money grabs, which effects when people are comming into the space.
Let's focus on DAOs as teams and guilds and collections of those things, and be patient and consider our composability and lego builds. It's hard to move an entire army; special forces have intuitive communication.
Let's specialize - Let's do fewer things better - Let's build in some redundency - Let's grow through composability - Let's do it in a sustainabile and repeatable way.
Raid Guild is considering teams within Raid Guild. Even if the teams aren't putting spoils back into the Guild, if they're doing good work they help improve the brand.
Success narratives and human/group connection - How do online communities fail here?
🌱"How do online communities fail to foster real human connection? How could they do better?"🌱
Are we actually failing at connecting?
Online communities do build friendship.
[Tools for Conviviality by Ivan Illich](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tools_for_Conviviality) opposition to dehumanizing extractive industry
Orient and optimize for different kinds of values.
There's an alternative history, opposed to extraction and scale, making the rich richer and dampening the voices of the minority.
🌱 **"Carefuly and deliberately designing our transitions"** 🌱