---
tags: other
title: Collaborative doc usage at CSC
---

# Collaborative document uses at CSC

:::info
**Update:**
After writing this document we took HedgeDoc for test: [Siili](https://siili.rahtiapp.fi)

5/2023: Siili has been used in multiple occasions and the demand is there. Now we are looking for more permanent solution.
:::

:::danger
This document is meant to highlight the need for a better solution for collaborative document at CSC; HackMD has been used, but does not function satisfactorily anymore.

This is **NOT** a request for another service for our customers, but for internal use in cases where customers are involved. I.e. the idea is **NOT** that we would host notes for customers but only our own course and event stuff.

**This topic is somewhat urgent, as upcoming courses plan to use a collaborative document**
:::

[toc]

## HackMD

HackMD is a webservice providing collaborative documents which can be accessed and edited anonymously and at the same time by multiple people. One writes in Markdown language (which is very close to plain text with only some extra signs, which are ~self-explanatory), but at the same time the document can be seen in rendered clean format:


The service is currently used in multiple courses and events for collaborative note taking and Q&A.

## HackMD use at CSC

Many online and hybrid **courses** made use of HackMD:

* Machine Learning and Deep Learning courses
* some GIS events and courses
* CodeRefinery course
* Using CSC environment efficiently courses
* Bioinfo courses
* HPC courses
* Advanced GROMACS workshops
* ...

It is also used in several other events, such as the LUMI user support session and the CSC research support sessions.

:::info
### Example
This document is written on HackMD, another nice example from research user support session: https://hackmd.io/@CSC-research-support/support-session/edit
:::

## Why we like HackMD

* on the fly rendering
* no need to worry about formatting
* markdown is familiar to many from eg github
* nice formatting of code
* anonymous editing
* no login needed
* possibility for nice URLs
* possibility for quick presentation material generation; even slides!
* teams; possibility for private notes
* possible github integration -> version control
* observable number of people looking at the file at any time

## The issue

Lately HackMD has been buggy and not user friendly due to issues on their end. Previously we made good experiences with up to 300 people editing the document at the same time.
It is unclear if it is a ressource or software problem, but it became quite unusable at times.

:::warning
Also we should consider where HackMD keeps the data. Is this somewhere in Taiwan? https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/hackmd
:::

## What we need from such service

* intuitive interface
* login only for note creation
* edit rights for "everyone with link" without any login
* basic formatting options
* nice render for sharing "results"
* something "familiar"

#### Additional for courses

* multi user editing possibility
* archive/knowledgebase; easy browsing
* no need for HAKA/CSC/VIRTU or similar account for editing

#### Additional for collaboration

* visual vs text is a preference; both would be nice to have
* public/private documents

:::danger
For courses paid HackMD or in house maintained CodiMD/Hedgedoc seem good alternatives.

For within team collaboration, all options are good and should be open for teams to choose
:::

## Some options

* **paid HackMD** enterprise plan: https://hackmd.io/pricing#
* -> unclear if it would resolve the issue (Self-hosting of paid instance would!)
* :+1: customers and lecturers are already familiar with the layout
* :+1: no customer log in needed; anonymous editing
* :+1: low own maintenance
* :-1: costs
* There is a discount for open-source communities and education organizations as well as Nonprofit sponsorship program.

* hosting own CSC internal instance of **HedgeDoc** (which is the community driven open source version of HackMD: https://hedgedoc.org/)
* :+1: many customers and lecturers are already familiar with the layout
* :+1: the data is ours and not somewhere in the open
* :+1: no customer log in needed
* :+1: anonymous Q&A; lowers the barrier to ask "stupid questions"
* :+1: Aalto Scientific Computing has made good experiences with hundreds of editors at same time; config can be copied from them: https://github.com/AaltoSciComp/hedgedoc-k8s
* :-1: someone has to install and maintain it
* Hosting own CSC internal instance of **CodiMD** (similar to HedgeDoc)
* https://github.com/hackmdio/codimd
* hosting own CSC internal instance of **Etherpad** (https://etherpad.org/):
* :+1:/:-1: many of above apply
* :-1: no experiences with large courses
* :-1: less functionality than other options
* **Google docs**
* :-1: It's google
* :-1: unknown capabilities for many editors at same time
* :-1: formatting; clutter
* :+1: familiar to many
* :+1:/:-1: "What you see is what you get" (WYSIWYG)
* **Eduuni Wiki**
* :-1: only 1-8 multi-person editing at same time possible
* :+1:/:-1: clean render, but not as nice as hackmd
* :-1: Feels more complicated than it needs to be
* :-1: login/sharing etc?
* :-1: reload needed to see updates when not in edit mode
* More info: https://wiki.csc.fi/SITI_Users/WorkingAtADistance?validation_key=1c0c06a02ff1cd2ccd15581f59ec716e#Simultaneous_document_processing_and_collaboration_sites
* **chat.csc.fi**
* :+1: with threads you can easily see questions and answers are "hidden" in threads
* :+1:/:-1: easy login with Haka, but does require login
* :-1: no "permanent record" or "archive" afterwards, unless it's done manually
* :-1: not for collaborating on same text
* **Conceptboard**
* :+1: nice for collaborating
* :-1: not for long texts
* :-1: can get chaotic when multiple people edit at same time
* **[Miro](https://miro.com/)**
* :+1: really good for collaboration
* :+1: versatile
* user sign up requirements?
* Max num of collaborators?
* Limitations? (What can be done if things get stuck?)

## Questions for/about paid HackMD
- Can teams be moved from free version to paid one? Does that depend on where it is hosted?
- Can it be hosted on our servers to keep the data in-house?
- If we host HackMD on our servers is it then completely our job to maintain? Does it affect the price?
- What is hardware/software setup is needed for hosting?
- We estimate to have ~10 notes with 100-200 users and ~100 notes with 10-20 users. How much is the cost?
-