# 2018-10-08 Post-Summit Meeting

:date: **Date:** Mon, Oct. 8, 2018 @ 21:00 Taipei Time
:family: **Attendance:** (counter-clockwise @username)
- chihao (chair?)
- devin
- Danny
- song huang
- jenny?
- james ([Pokai Chang](https://www.facebook.com/pokaichang72))
- etienne
- patcon
- YT Chen
- sylin
- thebestsophist
- fiorella
- viktor
- Zito (later)
- jerry (late)

## Notes

**Legend:**
:star: Action Item

- overtime: who does it?
- chulhiao: i do. i'll go
- patcon: old workplace recognized tendency to overwork, so we aspired for a work culture that pushed back on this. if we don't then families have no place, and hobbies have no place. the culture we built and support needs to resist us and our self-destructive tendencies. resist burnout.
- etienne: +1 yes, and...
- thebestsophist: i work for gov and they won't let me overwork. my on-the-side stuff counts in my mind. research, advisory board. diff bw be forced, wanting to, and having a culture that makes it feel obligatory. someone else can pick it up if we leave. the work will get done.
- danny: who benefits from your work? sometimes, it's YOU! yay! if fair and balanced with coworkers, we should be ok with that.
- Ex: golf app. ppl who benefit are gold clubs.
- etienne: g0lf?
- M1
- job union or work union. job U: same job, but can be diff orgs
- According to [the law](https://law.moj.gov.tw/LawClass/LawSingle.aspx?Pcode=N0020001&FLNO=6), there are three types are union in Taiwan: union for people in one single company (企業工會), trade unions for workers in an industry (產業工會) and job unions for people doing the same job (職業工會). TUEEIT is a trade union. [not sure about the translation for the type of unions]
- unions in tw sometimes don't have power to change culture
- after selling software, support the customers. but boss is family company. so boss can have too much power. can't change condition in workplace, even as president of union
- etienne: what kind of relationship between union and boss?
- Song: if half workers join means union can negotiate. hard std to meet. 40 of 80 min.
- bad rap. many feel unions are too radical
- example: at company, only 1/80 in union.
- how many ppl work in companies vs freelance?
- can be in between
- collective-ish: 5
- gov: 2
- company: 8?
- who doesn't get paid enough?
- i don't: 4
- do: balance
- patcon: don't make enough. live outdoors.
- sylin: how do we define work? occupies time vs enjoy?
- i divide my life into gov work and g0v work/vtaiwan. didn't feel conflict at work
- if you're working for gov, you're not working for vtaiwan as a citizen
- lines get blurred, accusations fly
- should i do the paperwork at work?
- hard to be in balance. i should take vacation to work on vtaiwan. but would still see boss there.
- what does work mean?
- what is the power structure?
- cooperative vs recursive public. learned through paper: http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Recursive_Public
- interactive environment that has ability to talk to yourself with always evolving consensus. always changing. way we change is by collective interaction that's input into env as well. always changing.
- two coop confs: enspiral in NZ. open coop in london.
- chihiao: how does money or profit flow? what is the economic?
- etienne: no answer. but not mutually exclusive
- doc that everyone can modify. how does the coop work? everyone can edit, as soon as you're a member.
- [CoMakery/self-organization-constitution](https://github.com/CoMakery/self-organization-constitution)
- *room migration*
- james: (Talking about g0v projects) just joined hackmd. Researching but not providing contributions yet.
- some workers have passion about the vision of the company or the tech they use and are willing to pay more time or energy on things related to their work
- some workers just view work as work. give time, get salary. don't always have passion for what company does. just want stable work.
- ideal company should care about both types of workers.
- give a lot of care for geeks who are passionate, but those who just want to learn are not that valued. don't feel good about it.
- roughly two kinda of people: some know what they're doing and have their own vision of company and tech.
- other kind just don't know what to do except work
- patcon: are these ppl convertible?
- james: would be hard.
- danny: friend says "you must like work?"
- I guess? i don't have other things to do in that time. we do lots of meetups. book club. "newspapers in 1930s: how to they work?"
- nice social group. when fired, have friends.
- patcon: is it an excuse to build a community? a renewable resource.
- working on tech stack, and projects
- thebestsophist
- how do we create instutations that create space for ____?`
- group comes to gether every week to teach what learned. 80/20 (80% of the working hours to work and 20% to learn or do things they considered to be valuable)
- perk bc asked for 80/20, but others don't. friday for g0v.
- patcon: could breed resentment
- chiliao: wage secrecy is a problem in TW
- considered rude to ask money
- danny: eep feeling
- viktor: negotiating with boss or coop might be topics that are new in tw. for most ppl, have traditional fam. esp outside taipei.
- things we talk about are things they'd never think of. what even IS a coop?
- coops are grocery store word, and it's kinda taken.
- patcon: terms are sometimes lazy. coop is often for members only. but public benefit organizations are for EVERYONE
- chihiao: west talks about great coops. but their democracies are heavily challenged. spanish democracy vs spanish coops. "my country sucks, but i can improve my coops"
- how can we grassroots organize around more wage transparency? glassdoor, was one way that this was done at my old workplace. the company ended up embracing it.
- example: [company page for Myplanet](https://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/myplanet-reviews-SRCH_KE0,8.htm)
- california has a negative law for protecting this: companies not allowed to ask what you made? about privacy.
- devin: can lie about the question
- why talk about wage transparency?
- https://buffer.com/salary
- wage should be based on previous job. so is transparency good?
- tw: they want workers to negotiate between employers
- taiwanese googlers are paid much less
- Googlers in Taiwan may need a Company Union (企業工會), that might help. But Googlers got paid much more than other engineers in Taiwan, and they might think they are strong enough didn't need a union
- ???: They Google "do i need a union" and Google says "no".
- zito: personal and org interests perhaps don't align, so interesting challenge (conflict of interest)
- cordelia (best sophist): eng at GE. HR software looks at comparative salary across org. if you are significantly lower, they raise to meet average and let the manager know. automatic process. designed to compensate for bias toward women.
- stupid that Google said they couldn't do this
- patcon: University of Toronto has a similar process.
- [gratipay take model](https://opensource.com/open-organization/16/7/compensating-employees-letting-them-take-what-they-want): putting movey at the center led to more compassion in this small circle.
- ppl might imagine tiered wages would be recognized if wages were transparent
- friend running experiment with "take model" when he was awarded a grant: https://github.com/benhylau/ssbc-grants-scuttlemesh
- would transparent wages lead to fights?
- i have more, would ppl resent me
- zito: many orgs make employees sign NDAs on salary
- but some have the right to reveal own salary
- government has clear formula, and high-paid ppl public (sunshine list)
- patcon: would love to know whether people think wage transparency is all good or all bad, and how confident
- patcon: if you can negotiate better, is that a success or a failure of a formula
- Example: Techqueria
- NPO vs open org
- more formal org ppl wanted to negotiate better. YES, and let's solve inequality for our employees.
- salary negotiations vs skill-building (one day, we'll all be free)
- Needs political sensitivity (?
- sylin: do members think they're working for the cooperative?
- devin: do ppl feel like tech-enabled abundance is maybe just around the corner? do we want to think about marginal improvements or "get-rich-quick" schemes (or simply ways to care less about these things)
- devin not convinced of own words
- devin: another twist = digital nomads
- sylin: very confused by concept. company vs freelancer -- where is cooperative??
- trip to turkey: heritage for past ppl. many rocks have caves. ancient temples. what would happen for ppl 5000 years later. all the heritage will be the tech building. in that moment i HATE work. i dont want to work for any company. interested in how ppl form into groups and work on things they want.
- working on other ppls visions. diginomad: working for yourself. hard to get paid. oh, cooperative is thing in middle! yes? sure.
- chihiao: you get a say in its vision
- sylin: cooperative vs club. money vs none. living vs interests.
- danny: lots of bad cooperatives. #NotAllMen hashtag. ex: sun-maid. aggressive and conservative coop. had the hardest time moving them (with a boycott?)
- burnout. "i make washing machines, man. whatever.". lose passion. not all coops are good.
- patcon: is there a too big size?
- danny: size of egos?
- viktor: i dont trust that we can solve it all in agreement. in a trustful way. sometimes we just want to get a job and get paid. i don't want to talk to people.
- ???: can a coop vote to kick people out?
- danny: yes. best coops have informed consent or rough consensus
- ... missed things
- viktor: do members need to care about one another?
- danny: the ICA: intl coop alliance. bland. abstract. 7 principles. 150 yrs ago. 1) concern for community.
- should we kick this person out? i dunno: do we care about them?
- can interpret these principles however you'd like to (depends on politics?)
- sylin: what are the shared values of coops. changes all the time, and so no one can fully understand.
- g0v. shared vision. but lots of different ideas. hard to get image for asking a person.
- chiliao: why am i interested in coops? bc strucutre, boundaries, laws of gov. diff from g0v. at g0v laws are all invisible. but coops:
- explicit laws more than invisible.
- decentralization can become empty.
- can ACTUALLY make money
- economic sustainability
- design of governance fair and democratic
- patcon: [Nomic](http://wiki.c2.com/?NomicGame) as a game to experiment with building quick constitutions?
- thebestsophist: BOOK reccommendation: Liberated Structures
- don't self-id as anarchist bc there's space between hierarchical and anarchy. anarchic structure is the way we make decisions and organize how we organize.
- ppl think of anarchy as totally without structure, but depends who you talk to
- ~~anarchy~~ bc think of structurelessness, even in poli sci context. meaning means nothing, and not useful.
- etienne: "order minus power"
- chiliao: "ideology without government"
- "an-na-qi"(安那其) sounds like anarchism, but fresh unspoilt terrain
- equitable government or governance body
- sylin: should be in VR ;)
- danny: would invite guests. prison abolition group. had her speak and had fundraiser. felt easy and beneficial. kept momentum.

## Action Items?

:star: #lazybookclub go see the same movie
:star: organize event
:star: lead a group session to socialize and learn about ideas and values circulating
:star: demonstrate together: solidarity actions aligning with values
:star: organize drink-up/meetup
:star: share job opportunities (spreadsheet)
:star: prototype g0v job board
:star: share mailing lists we should be on together (only the best!)