# Meta Magicians session outline

### A. General information
| | |
| -------- | -------- |
| Session title | Meta Magicians ring |
| Facilitator | Boris |
| Scribe | *Text* |
| Time and date | 13:30 - 15:00, 29.10.2018. |
| Material requirements | *Text* |
| Space requirements | *Text* |
| Number of participants | *Text* |

### B. Expected outcomes
1.

### C. Expected outputs
1.

### D. Timeline

| Duration | Segment | Description |
| -------- | -------- | -------- |
| Example: *10min* | Example: *Introduction* | Example: *The facilitator will briefly introduce the outline of the session with emphasis on expected outomes and outputs. Also, rules of participation and conduct will be set.* |
| *text* | *text* | *text* |

## Notes

Rhys
Aidan
TJ Rush
Bryant
- issuing invoices
Brooke
William
Simona
- events - inclusivity
Amy
- inclusivity
Jordy
- interested in organization, reaching consensus on standards
Andreas
- Kauri -- getting to action
- scale and communicate, keep invluded
from St. Lucia
- coming from St. Lucia, populaton of 200K
- when I wanted to get involved in cc community, used localbitcoin
- I was the only user -- throughout the Caribean and East Africa, same problems still exist

---

William
- open Q&A -- 200 people
- about 20 got a chance to speak
- as groups get larger -- 80% stay quiet
- in first ring group -- 30min was intros
- point from Boris, Aidan -- like Linux or Bitcoin
- IETF made some mistakes? Hit level of growth -- costs of coordination, cause people pushed to the wayside
- if every single person has to have input, then each person is added -- cost goes into coordination
- company called Gore -- famous for making Goretex
- no managers -- best place to work
- they found that there need to be small groups rather than large groups -- by necessity

TJ Rush
- when we will meet next?
- instead -- push to regions

Bryant
- started my own meetup in my own city
- no one from community is at DevCon -- I'm representing that community
- hierarchies of discussion
- can continue to have larger discussions

- Need better communication -- out of in person, to online
- Asynch communications
- when do we want to meet? what goals do we want to succeed?
- succesful rings did pre-work to move forward

- others, for alignment in the room very valuable
- more onus to do pre-work
- lot of rework -- tackle the same issue, with a slightly different angle
- trying to claim attention space -- or physical space
- like Security Tokens vs.
- not having one canon
- better communication method

Boris
- example

Kauri
- tying things more to an EIP process -- measurable outcomes
- agreement or not
- implement in hackathons

Jordy
- one of problem with EIPs
- person who writes it is interested parties
- good position to start -- maybe there is another group -- that has a different perspective
- competition rather than collaboration
- EIPs shouldn't be linked by interest -- more professional manner
- leadership of an EIP -- not knowing a lot -- just to be sure you are hearing all the parties
- what are the conflicts, what are shared, neutral arbitration
- if the EIP, the owner has that much power

TJ Rush
- how do we have forcing functions -- that force to not have leaders
- keep them fluid

Aidan:
* no processes -- blow it up to regional areas

Amy
* been experimenting
* responsibility of coming into a circle, need to do work
* observer, or taking action
* teach them to someone else
* they should be able to get there and ready to run
* choose how to be governed
* hierarchy - holocracy - consensys
* close the gap of alignment
* how inclusive trying to be?

Boris
* explanation rings
* Operations Ring
* there is no "volunteers" ring yet -- so maybe we need one (we technically have a group & private forum for volunteering)

Jamie
* starts with personal responsibility
* people feel responsible
* create a tension -- in order
* can't decentralize everything
* have to have structure
* can build trust
* for example with Operations Ring -- there is a multisig
* resources need to be managed -- need people to help with management
* how do you deal with resources as part of centralization?

??
* management if there is a lot of money
* what if proposals are made to receive funding?

William
* large issue around funds
* maybe EthMagicians never want to hold funds
* money is a horrible thing
* money needs a bit of organization -- maybe
* more pure opinion if are no salaries

Boris
* explain there isn't a lot of money
* opinion: can we only use the donation funds for events

William
* making an event
* how do we give out money

Boris
* IETF uses host organizations

Jamie
* Internet Society is the partner to IETF
* Can we move the money to a separate entity
* any resources is power
* not just money -- numbering scheme on EIPs

Aidan
* how do we take whatever we have here -- bring it back to where we're from
* how do we support more people like yourself
* this conversation is most important for next council
* livestreaming is great

James
* making it so that Magicians don't have to worry about money
* separate body? we can do our thing
* not mixing them sounds like a good thing, sounds like a compromise

Peter Pan
* syndicate model -- pledge money to a cause, angel fund
* propose things, which people should fund or not
* individual organizations decide how much to fund

Bryant
* interesting use of money to servic infrastructure
* vote with their money, donating to smaller groups that form
* end of the day there is a need for infra -- including infra to handle money
* same thing with resource -- take some money to run, common infra we rely on
* money is best used for that sort of thing, for any group
* everyone has to fundraise themselves

Boris
* costs of volunteers $20K

MP
* what if one group wants to fundraise for getting something built -- eg. signal
* can we still trust people to use the name EthMagicians and raise funds

Bryant
* scapegoat co that is formed to do invoices

Brooke
* if scapegoat takes invoices, then will be taxed
* should we non profit? non profits are complexed

Bryant "scapegoat international"

MP
* can we use Giveth
* non binding votes
* fundraising is very difficult

Brooke
* getting ahead of ourselves
* non financial means of supporting sub groups

James
* stuff with fundraising that could be under entity
* grant process or whatever
* signaling ring -- never once thought I'm representing EthMagicians
* never said "we're from EthMagicians" -- asked for our project to exist

Jamie
* these are resources, affiliation
* not all of us have jobs at organizations that can fund things
* people that want to participate that flights and things are a big burden
* trying to enable process
* like signaling notion

Amy
* focused on operational budget rather than future funding
* have that budget
* align partnerships -- we do have agreement from these partners

Boris:
* ask for consensus on NOT fundraising outside operational costs

MP:
* way to express opinions on funded projects -- because we are scaling quite fast

Williams:
* anyone should be able to do an EthMagicians event?
* empower all people

Peter:
* doesn't like voting

Simona:
* voting not inclusive

Jamie:
* other rings signal

Brooke:
* everyone and no one is a magician
* no one can and can't
* but ... we do need to recognize that people will want to borrow the legitimacy of the name

Aidan
* from an open source software perspective
* want to have remote / distributed hackathon
* Colony has a repo on how to have a remote hackathon
* Colony never said no one has to have permission
* we have all the best practices out there
* make things as forkable as possible

Peter
* adding to coordination and borrowing legitimacy
* the signal of Magicians is provided by individuals

Brooke
* inside the dis-organization
* from outside - EthMagicians is being pointed from the outside
* potential for abuse

MP
* I think that voting and signaling are different things
* don't want to hard vote
* there should be signaling to prevent these things
* forming an organization -- one of my guys wants to do something political
* how do we define our goals? what is and is not political?
* if rough consenus is achieved

Jordy
* if we are an organization or not
* if we are, then there are limitations
* we need governance -- don't care about democracy or dictatorship
* if we act as an organization, need to take those steps

MP
* the first form of Ethereum activism
* we want to jump on this as activism

Bryant
* culture -- something between organization and anarchy
* if you don't ascribe to the model
* signal that people should revisit
* not just a pool of water on the floor

Jamie
* as individuals
* it is loose
* are we an organization? there is a lot of fictional thinking, decentralized vs formal
* a human organization is formed -- we know how to organize
* "an institution" --> those geese are coming to consensus
* loose organization
* some people want a more legalistic approach

William
* one is allocation around resources
* beneficial to look at EthMagicians that has some organized parts to it
* there is something organizational / institutional
* stick with that giant anarchy
* centralization around resources -- rules around the resources
* eg website has rules

Aidan
* allow culture to define entries and exits
* if we formalize too much

Brooke
* shill event?
* EthMagicians Shill fest -- then we need to solve it

Aidan
* will signal that it is a shill event

Bryant
* template?

MP
* do we need a way to kill an exit scam

William
* Don't need to de-endorse things
* Shillcoin Council of New York
* meritocracy -- anyone can use it -- people would need to educate

Jordy
* we are an organization
* don't be afraid of organizing
* when I hear the word signaling -- I want voting!
* when we are talking about decentralized then power -- rather than signaling, want voting

Jamie
* resources like the twitter account
* in general, a lot more loose
* sharper edges along other resources
* individuals have a way to speak out
* let's not prematurely optimize

## To Do

### ETHMagicians in the Public Domain

Is the term EthMagicians in the Public Domain?

### Permission for Events

No one needs permission to run an EthMagicians event
Template discussion

### Support Smaller / Regional Events

Boris: how do we enable / encourage / support smaller regional events around the world? (aka “there is no way I am doing the madness that is 250 people next to DevCon/insert large ETH event ever again”)

TJ + Lane -- small regional
Alex / Kauri have people in NYC

### Governance of donated funds
* link to forum thread
* plus operational issues about moving to a better multi-sig

### How are Councils run?
* Should we follow the template from 2018 for 2019?

### Ecosystem Lack of Duplication
* Andreas: collaboration across the Ethereum ecosystem, how do we do it better and duplicate efforts less frequently?

### Formalizing EIP around Ring Charters

James: Would formalizing an EIP around Ring Charters (i.e Rings exist outside of Ethereum Magicans) be helpful to clarifying Rings and their organization.

TO EIP DISCUSSION

### Issuing Invoices

Bryant: can we have a shared entity?
Who invoices as a shared resource?

OPEN

### Budget

TO DO: share this, who can help?

### Fundraising using Magicians

Boris: Propose that we do NOT use fundraising for anything other than operational needs for Council events

Jordy: dont' have Quorum!
Boris: yes! we gather consensus in the room, and then bring to forum