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Collaborative document uses at CSC

Update:
After writing this document we took HedgeDoc for test: Siili

5/2023: Siili has been used in multiple occasions and the demand is there. Now we are looking for more permanent solution.

This document is meant to highlight the need for a better solution for collaborative document at CSC; HackMD has been used, but does not function satisfactorily anymore.

This is NOT a request for another service for our customers, but for internal use in cases where customers are involved. I.e. the idea is NOT that we would host notes for customers but only our own course and event stuff.

This topic is somewhat urgent, as upcoming courses plan to use a collaborative document

HackMD

HackMD is a webservice providing collaborative documents which can be accessed and edited anonymously and at the same time by multiple people. One writes in Markdown language (which is very close to plain text with only some extra signs, which are ~self-explanatory), but at the same time the document can be seen in rendered clean format:

The service is currently used in multiple courses and events for collaborative note taking and Q&A.

HackMD use at CSC

Many online and hybrid courses made use of HackMD:

  • Machine Learning and Deep Learning courses
  • some GIS events and courses
  • CodeRefinery course
  • Using CSC environment efficiently courses
  • Bioinfo courses
  • HPC courses
  • Advanced GROMACS workshops
  • …

It is also used in several other events, such as the LUMI user support session and the CSC research support sessions.

Example

This document is written on HackMD, another nice example from research user support session: https://hackmd.io/@CSC-research-support/support-session/edit

Why we like HackMD

  • on the fly rendering
  • no need to worry about formatting
  • markdown is familiar to many from eg github
  • nice formatting of code
  • anonymous editing
  • no login needed
  • possibility for nice URLs
  • possibility for quick presentation material generation; even slides!
  • teams; possibility for private notes
  • possible github integration -> version control
  • observable number of people looking at the file at any time

The issue

Lately HackMD has been buggy and not user friendly due to issues on their end. Previously we made good experiences with up to 300 people editing the document at the same time.
It is unclear if it is a ressource or software problem, but it became quite unusable at times.

Also we should consider where HackMD keeps the data. Is this somewhere in Taiwan? https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/hackmd

What we need from such service

  • intuitive interface
  • login only for note creation
  • edit rights for "everyone with link" without any login
  • basic formatting options
  • nice render for sharing "results"
  • something "familiar"

Additional for courses

  • multi user editing possibility
  • archive/knowledgebase; easy browsing
  • no need for HAKA/CSC/VIRTU or similar account for editing

Additional for collaboration

  • visual vs text is a preference; both would be nice to have
  • public/private documents

For courses paid HackMD or in house maintained CodiMD/Hedgedoc seem good alternatives.

For within team collaboration, all options are good and should be open for teams to choose

Some options

  • paid HackMD enterprise plan: https://hackmd.io/pricing#

    • -> unclear if it would resolve the issue (Self-hosting of paid instance would!)
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
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      customers and lecturers are already familiar with the layout
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
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      no customer log in needed; anonymous editing
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
      • The image path is incorrect
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      Learn More →
      low own maintenance
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
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      costs
      • There is a discount for open-source communities and education organizations as well as Nonprofit sponsorship program.

  • hosting own CSC internal instance of HedgeDoc (which is the community driven open source version of HackMD: https://hedgedoc.org/)

    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
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      many customers and lecturers are already familiar with the layout
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
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      the data is ours and not somewhere in the open
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
      • The image path is incorrect
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      no customer log in needed
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
      • The image path is incorrect
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      anonymous Q&A; lowers the barrier to ask "stupid questions"
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      Aalto Scientific Computing has made good experiences with hundreds of editors at same time; config can be copied from them: https://github.com/AaltoSciComp/hedgedoc-k8s
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
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      someone has to install and maintain it

  • Hosting own CSC internal instance of CodiMD (similar to HedgeDoc)

  • hosting own CSC internal instance of Etherpad (https://etherpad.org/):

    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
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      /
      Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      many of above apply
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      no experiences with large courses
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
      • The image path is incorrect
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      less functionality than other options

  • Google docs

    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
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      It's google
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      unknown capabilities for many editors at same time
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
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      formatting; clutter
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      familiar to many
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      Learn More →
      /
      Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      "What you see is what you get" (WYSIWYG)

  • Eduuni Wiki

    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      only 1-8 multi-person editing at same time possible
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
      • The image path is incorrect
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      Learn More →
      /
      Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      clean render, but not as nice as hackmd
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
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      Feels more complicated than it needs to be
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
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      login/sharing etc?
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
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      reload needed to see updates when not in edit mode
    • More info: https://wiki.csc.fi/SITI_Users/WorkingAtADistance?validation_key=1c0c06a02ff1cd2ccd15581f59ec716e#Simultaneous_document_processing_and_collaboration_sites

  • chat.csc.fi

    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      with threads you can easily see questions and answers are "hidden" in threads
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      /
      Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      easy login with Haka, but does require login
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      no "permanent record" or "archive" afterwards, unless it's done manually
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      not for collaborating on same text

  • Conceptboard

    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
      • The image path is incorrect
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      nice for collaborating
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
      • The image path is incorrect
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      not for long texts
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
      • The image path is incorrect
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      can get chaotic when multiple people edit at same time

  • Miro

    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
      • The image file may be corrupted
      • The server hosting the image is unavailable
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      really good for collaboration
    • Image Not Showing Possible Reasons
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      versatile
    • user sign up requirements?
    • Max num of collaborators?
    • Limitations? (What can be done if things get stuck?)

Questions for/about paid HackMD

  • Can teams be moved from free version to paid one? Does that depend on where it is hosted?
  • Can it be hosted on our servers to keep the data in-house?
  • If we host HackMD on our servers is it then completely our job to maintain? Does it affect the price?
    • What is hardware/software setup is needed for hosting?
  • We estimate to have ~10 notes with 100-200 users and ~100 notes with 10-20 users. How much is the cost?
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