---
# System prepended metadata

title: 'Semi-Spookiness: Sometimes Stalling in Sieve Systems'

---

# Semi-Spookiness: Sometimes Stalling in Sieve Systems

When it comes to permission to discard in 3p+, the current orthodox when playing sieve-like systems is that if there's no "necessary clues" to give (clues that sieve in useful cards), then a player will discard their slot 1 eagerly. After all, if their chop was useful and they had any other safe actions, the team would have told them, and even if they didn't, the team could have locked them. The problem is that cluing to lock is expensive: We would rather be drawing cards to unlock them.

In contrast, the current orthodox when playing H-Group is to protect your chop by any means necessary, unless you are "called to discard", usually by someone "stealing" your clue.


Properties we would like in an ideal system:
- When Alice is loaded, Bob has no safe actions, and Cathy does, Alice can play and Bob will give a clue.
  - Consequently, when Alice just played and Cathy has safe actions, Bob does not have ptd.
- When Alice is loaded, Bob's chop is trash, and Cathy has no safe actions, Alice can play and Bob can discard
  - Consequently, if Alice plays and Bob discards, Cathy is *spooked* and does not have ptd.

## Proposal

Here is the convention (for 3p at least):
- There are three states a player can be in: Safe, Semi-Spooked, and Spooked
  - Safe, meaning you know you hold a safe action
  - Spooked, meaning you know you hold no safe actions
  - Semi-Spooked, meaning you're not sure
- All players are Semi-Spooked by default
- Loaded players are Safe. Furthermore, players who know they hold a safe action without necessarily knowing where it is are Safe.
- Semi-Spooked Alice is expected to clue unless
  - Bob holds no safe actions
  - Bob is loaded and Cathy is already Spooked
- Therefore, if Semi-Spooked Alice discards and Bob is not loaded, he can deduce he holds no safe actions. He then becomes Spooked.
- If Semi-Spooked Alice has no good clue to give, she can tell Bob to discard his chop by giving a clue that would normally lock him. Spending a clue to lock Bob would make no sense because Alice could simply discard to Spook him instead.
- Safe players will usually play or discard. There are a few exceptions:
  - Bob's chop is good and Alice can give a clue to sieve it in
  - Bob's chop is trash, he holds extra safe actions, and Cathy holds a safe action.
    - Here Alice can give a direct clue to Cathy, and Bob will be "called to discard". He will not only have known trash on chop, but he will also mark elim notes for a second safe action, meaning he will still be Safe after he discards.
    - If Cathy's only safe action is that her chop is trash and Bob is currently Semi-Spooked, Alice can give a clue that would normally lock Cathy, but because Cathy could have simply been Spooked by allowing Bob to discard, it will actually tell her to discard her chop.
  - Bob's chop is trash and Cathy's only safe action is a duplicate of a useful card in Bob's hand
    - Here Alice can skip over Bob, but he does not write elim notes for a second safe action (TODO: will this cause desync if Cathy hasn't discarded yet?)
  - Semi-Spooked Bob's chop is critical and Cathy holds no safe actions
    - Alice needs to clue to prevent Bob from discarding to Spook Cathy

TODO: A spooked player needs to be able to lock other players. How does that work/how is that distinguished from discard chop signals?

## Hypos

- 3p 6 Suits with Direct Reactor
  - Slightly scary at times but [0 BDR](https://hanab.live/shared-replay-json/315rlbk21a0icpphsuud-mtjowlbae0vnpzqmdvkf-zgacgq3wsxzr2kihxnyf-fu1,03lb0aakadsaaoab-ocar1caggaac1abp1caj-bwaqgabytcbxwaaza1ob-a20cbla41aa5aaaua0av-afanaskcaAaekcaFbG0c-aHbIxaampbaiataKbhbN-b6bCbQ1cbSaT,1). In comparison, [ref sieve gets 0 BDRs in hypo much more easily](https://hanab.live/shared-replay-json/315rlbk21a0icpphsuud-mtjowlbae0vnpzqmdvkf-zgacgq3wsxzr2kihxnyf-fu1,03lcaglbadsaxawb-bpkbacajaoabaralaqbw-bkgcazbxpca1a2ocb3a4-kba5aubyb7,1)...
  - [1 BDR](https://hanab.live/shared-replay-json/315bfldr1tcuhiqoj2zi-mgnxdnl30vymxkgbpqvu-sfkkafw0causzrhppewa-21z,03wbaisbabpcbktc-apkakcasbo1cajpaaqbv-an1cbx0bbwaztba0afbr-ocoaa4acb3saa2atamb8-a7alaesabDaBlcaFaawc-aHbIahauada1bAbNagbP-gcbRaSaQ0axaaVb9ay,1). 
    - #25 sketchy. [Here's a better version](https://hanab.live/shared-replay-json/315bfldr1tcuhiqoj2zi-mgnxdnl30vymxkgbpqvu-sfkkafw0causzrhppewa-21z,03wbaisbabpcbktc-apkakcasbo1cajpaaqbv-an1cbx0bbwazwatbafbr-a0oab3a4ocb5acpaa7b8-a2alobat1baebDamlcaF-bCwbaHaua6ahbGada1sb-baaMbNgcagaSbQ0abKaV-bBay,1)
  - [0 BDR](https://hanab.live/shared-replay-json/315zt2agca3xbpfslwip-majb1h0gkyficdfruuwn-ps1mvuxovhldeqkqrn0k-z2z,03ockaakadagobaa-aj1bbqafalbukc0baxav-xatbazanacahbpaearaw-xcb3wba2attbbyb8a7bB-aAwabEaFbDa9scaIbJai-a4gca0aNsbaO1absa6am-ab,1)

## Appendix (Thinking out loud)

Here's a table elaborating all the possible combinations of (Bob hand, Cathy hand, Alice state, convention system) and what Alice's action is. I needed to create this to think through this topic, although it's probably too verbose to be useful as a reader.

There are five interesting categories of hands here:
CHOP) chop is trash and that's the only safe action
OFF-CHOP) chop is useful and they hold other safe actions
MANY) chop is trash and they hold other safe actions
BDR) chop is useful non-critical and they hold no other safe actions
CRIT) chop is critical and they hold no other safe actions

| Bob      | Cathy    | Alice (safe)           | Alice (semi-spooked)             | Alice (spooked)      | Alice (loaded RS) | Alice (unloaded RS) |
| -------- | -------- | ------------------------ | ---------------------------- | -------------------- | ----------------- | ------------------- |
| CHOP     | CHOP     | play                     | "lock" Cathy                 | clue (what?)         | play              | discard             |
| CHOP     | OFF-CHOP | play                     | clue Cathy                   | clue Cathy           | play              | discard             |
| CHOP     | MANY     | play                     | clue Cathy                   | clue Cathy           | play              | discard             |
| CHOP     | BDR      | play                     | lock Cathy                   | lock Cathy           | play              | discard             |
| CHOP     | CRIT     | play                     | lock Cathy                   | lock Cathy           | play              | discard             |
| OFF-CHOP | CHOP     | reactive?/clue Bob/play  | reactive?/clue Bob           | reactive?/clue Bob   | clue Bob          | clue Bob            |
| OFF-CHOP | OFF-CHOP | reactive/play            | reactive/clue Bob            | reactive/clue Bob    | pp/play           | pp/clue Bob         |
| OFF-CHOP | MANY     | reactive/clue Bob/play   | reactive/clue Bob            | reactive/clue Bob    | pp/play           | pp/clue Bob         |
| OFF-CHOP | BDR      | clue Bob                 | clue Bob                     | clue Bob             | clue Bob          | clue Bob            |
| OFF-CHOP | CRIT     | clue Bob                 | clue Bob                     | clue Bob             | play              | clue Bob            |
| MANY     | CHOP     | reactive/"lock" Cathy    | reactive?/clue Bob           | reactive?/clue Bob   | play              | discard             |
| MANY     | OFF-CHOP | reactive/clue Cathy/play | reactive/clue Cathy          | reactive/clue Cathy  | pp/clue Cathy     | pp/clue Cathy       |
| MANY     | MANY     | reactive/clue Cathy/play | reactive/clue Cathy/clue Bob | reactive/clue either | play              | discard             |
| MANY     | BDR      | play                     | lock Cathy                   | lock Cathy           | lock Cathy/play   | lock Cathy          |
| MANY     | CRIT     | play                     | lock Cathy                   | lock Cathy           | lock Cathy/play   | lock Cathy          |
| BDR      | CHOP     | play                     | discard                      | lock Bob             | lock Bob/play     | lock Bob/discard    |
| BDR      | OFF-CHOP | play                     | discard                      | lock Bob             | play              | discard             |
| BDR      | MANY     | play                     | discard                      | lock Bob             | lock Bob(/play?)  | lock Bob/discard    |
| BDR      | BDR      | play                     | discard                      | lock Cathy           | play              | discard             |
| BDR      | CRIT     | play                     | discard                      | lock Cathy           | play              | discard             |
| CRIT     | CHOP     | play                     | discard                      | lock Bob             | clue Bob          | clue Bob            |
| CRIT     | OFF-CHOP | play                     | discard                      | lock Bob             | play              | clue Bob            |
| CRIT     | MANY     | play                     | discard                      | lock Bob             | clue Bob          | clue Bob            |
| CRIT     | BDR      | clue Bob                 | discard                      | lock Bob             | clue Bob          | clue Bob            |
| CRIT     | CRIT     | clue Bob                 | discard                      | lock Bob             | play              | clue Bob            |



If Alice is deciding whether to discard her chop or give a clue, the category of Bob's hand largely determines what she does.

In Ref Sieve:
CHOP) Alice always discards
OFF-CHOP) Alice always clues Bob
MANY) Alice steals Bob's clue if one exists, otherwise she discards
BDR) Alice chooses between locking Bob and discarding. Discards if Bob has a good clue to give or the lock looks too expensive
CRIT) Alice always clues. She either locks Bob or gives a discard clue on a useful card in his hand

In Reactor:
CHOP) Alice always discards (same as ref sieve)
OFF-CHOP) Alice always clues (same as ref sieve)
MANY) Alice tries to give a reactive clue that makes Bob do his other safe action (sieving in trash). If there is no reactive clue because Cathy has no safe actions, Alice discards and lets Bob lock her
BDR) Alice (almost?) always feels compelled to give the lock clue to Bob
CRIT) Alice always clues. (same as ref sieve)




