Dara Kong/SaSa art projects

# Dara Kong/SaSa art projects :::info ### 訪談時間： 2021年1月18日 (一) ### 地點： Zoom meeting room ### 受訪者簡介 🍢 Dara KONG /SASA art projects ::: Interviewers: Fiona & Sherry Interviewee: Dara Kong Part 1 (11:51) Dara My name is Dara...Actually, I do not have a background in art. For my background, I studied finance and banking at university for four years...and then...at that time maybe I didn't know anything about art at all, but I was interested in art in high school, but I didn’t have any chance to practice on my art...But in the second year at university...they offered to study drawing in one of the small spaces in town...I was interested to go and study...and I studied art with one of the co-founder of Sa Sa Art Project...so for..until 2012...it’s about two years for practicing art...but not on the particulars of an actual university ...kind of like to draw the structures, make some ideas, but also paintings, small sculptures...not on particulars in a university..like training to be...as a big artwork..to be an artists..but during that time Sa Sa Art Project become quite practical knowledge..for two years..and then create to become Sa Sa Art Project...and then at the time...At that time I didn't.... because we finish the class..at that time I asked...the art director of Sa Sa Art Project...because...the salary....because I don't know where I am going to go or somewhere...at that time it’s 2012...they had the artist workshop and residency..and then I just ask the collective..the co-founder..I would like to work without salary, just cleaning the space it’s ok.I got curious about what is...also the artist...then I become...starting to work become…Did you hear? (14:51) Fiona We are having some little interruptions... Dara I think maybe it's because of my connection... Fiona But I get most of the parts that you said... Dara Ok, I don't understand why I can’t connect my phone to the internet...so, maybe we just...so now you hear me?...ok, I am so sorry…I don’t know if the problem is fromm me or you...So, basically..so now...I was telling you was on the top...after that it cute...so, maybe you could ask a question for me...and then..do you think until 2012..after that I start telling you I started working at Sa Sa...after that...2013...and then my teacher invite me to join the first residency program at Sa Sa Art Project...after couple months...I didn't know what this residency program mean..I didn't know what I should do....they give me a lot of money...start to do something..maybe a platform....create the sculpture...and then after that...I was a new student of art...then..start become a member after...start to have a salary..I started cleaning...then become an assistant of the artist assistant...to bring artists around...support to the artist..where they need to buy something...I started to work on that and became more curious about art...I worked on other things for two years...2014-2016...for two years..then I get a small invitation to join small solo exhibitions in Phnom Penh...it was a very big change for me...what should I do for a solo exhibition? Then the curator said “you do whatever you like”...I stayed for 5 months to create one solo exhibition...at that time..5 months I do it and the exhibition is only one month...it is only lucky that I sold all my work...then after that...I think “what should I do with this big amount?”..it’s more than 2000 US dollars...should I buy an iphone?..then at that time I thought I should use this budget for a residency in Bangkok...for a new project ..the same project in Cambodia...but in Thailand instead...I decide whether it’s correct or not..maybe I decide..I will lose my 2000..in Bangkok...at that time...I try another residency in Vietnam and apply...I got this residency...I got curious..I ask my teacher...what should I do? I didn't know anything...after that...that time I was invited to join the...they have a residency...OCSC...at that time..I learn ...for one year..stay in Cambodia for one year...this made me more curious to start...then after that...I came back around 2017...my boss asked me to join the new position...invite me...to support the residency program..to hold this program...until now...maybe this is enough to introduce myself…(21:52) Fiona So, from what you have said, you were away from Sa Sa Art Project for a year focusing on your own artistic career by doing different residencies around the region. But then when you were away were you still considered a member of Sa Sa Art, was it a flexible thing or you quit the team? Dara I talk with our director.because you have to plan..ask the team.the collective..they will be have someone to replace your work...then I also talk with other teammates if it was ok for me to leave...Sa Sa Art Project is open to the whole team...everyone can apply your old projects..everyone can travel outside....Because Our director is very happy our team can travel and connect with...different collective and art community...when you come back you..you have our collective and team and the art community in Cambodia..it gives me..not only myself...but for other team....when you travel for one year..not go for yourself...but for Sa Sa Art Project...we spread our members and our projects to the people we meet outside….If I go Taiwan..I speak about our program...our program..invite us to to Taidong for residency program.....so that is our team member got to do this when we travel around….(24:50) Fiona I am curious...this is actually quite liberal way..how your collective works...people are pretty chill about different members have their own career while different members...like you, have always in your mind bringing something that your learn or gain back into the group..I am curious ...how you keep everyone on the same page?...for example when you travel around you will meet someone who is interested in working with Sa Sa Art Project..but then how do you bring this back...will you go back to your team and discuss this? “Someone wants to work with us...should we do this?” or you can decide on your own..because you are the key player? (26:00) Dara Basically when we our team own respible... ...everyone has their own responsibility..I am responsible for the residency program ..other responsible for public program..others are....responsible for the exhibition...if someone interesting in residency they only contact me directly..when I say something if someone is interested about exhibition.. I just told about brief about our program...or how to apply for an exhibition at Sa Sa but it is related to this person....that is our team....we only do not decide as a person, but as the team...when you come back to the space...I say if someone is interesting in exhibition...I give them the contact..they can respond...that is what we are doing...unless the program decides..be decide...we have to decide as a team..not only the director decide..the members decide....if the director he wants to invite..one artist for exhibition...but if we are not interested with our program...we could not accept it...even our co-founder could not accept it...I mean the director can decide...if he wants to do something...he also tell us...even me...if the artist joins the residency...we have to decide the whole team..who is responsible need to have their own opinions..they will thinking...if good enough and can join our program. Fiona How do you then decide..you plan the whole year’s program or the operational plan?...how long do you plan ahead..5 years..3 years...or one year and how do you come to a decision? (29:30) Dara Most likely...what we are doing we planning a head one year before...for the whole program..residency..workshop..exhibitions or any any particular...exchange program...exchange program is coming up a new one...we cannot plan one..we plan one year before...not only we plan our program in December.....and we will announce to our team on January...until January next year..what we are doing for whole program Fiona Do you have a vision of how long Sa Sa Art Project will exist? Or are you trying to make Sa Sa Art Project a susatible, long lasting one..or is there a deadline or dateline where you see your mission will come? Can you hear me? Dara I could not see my ...my internet could not see what...sorry...Can you say again…? (31:45) Fiona Because you say you plan one year ahead for your program.how do you see all the team members see Sa Sa Project in the long run…? Dara I have to do something… Fiona Should I repeat? You were saying you were planning one year ahead of time for the Sa Sa Art project..I am curious, do you have a timeline or how long the Sa Sa Art Project will continue? Or how far will you go or do you have a timeline when you will end?..like Bamboo Curtain Studio. Dara We have been planning..we are lucky for running our space for ten years..very lucky for us...most likely our plan every 3 years for the program...that we have to run one year before...for our goal, we plan at least three years.. How our whole team goes, not just Sa Sa Art Project… (34:44) Part 2 Fiona I was asking..you were talking about planning 3 years ahead for the operation of the team..the group.. Dara Also, we... Fiona I am just curious...what is the process of the discussion among the members? Dara What about the program?...It depends on our funding...our last funding for 3 years they didn't need outreach..just only...depends what we are doing...the last two years funding 2017 till last year...we need to do a report...every three months...to the funders...to the sponsors..so, we need to report our program for 3 months...then after that send the report to the donors...and they send more money for 3 more months...so, that’s why how we process..it just depend on our donor...depend on sponsor what they need from us..that is what we report to the donors...for the past two years...what we have been doing before...so, basically our timeline preparing for one year...for 3 years is our goal reachout....we can also change in the 3 years...basically for one year plan ahead...so residency program we choose... so, basically, we have our team a meeting every week..and also every month...but in one year...big operation...working with co-founder..that one year...then all operations responsible..who artist we want to invite..in one year invite who...present to co-founder...then...can, suggest to me as well, like what we doing next one year. Other teams or so, represent another program as well, that is what we are doing...we plan one month ahead..., I wrote about proposals...to end..to each person...to the whole team...including the co-founders...then after that I need to...research all the artists. I have 20 artists to join the residency program..so I have to reach all the artist and the artist’s work..but before to present this...I am the one who shortlist...because and also artwork is connected to our program...not mean artist good or cannot join our program..they are not matching are in our program…it is not they are bad or good....so we have to reach our goal what we decide to choose our related to our projects choose ...we could not choose from European artists..not our goal..reach out to SE Asians and Cambodian people...that is our goal..in terms of we can accept the exchange program and workshop..not our mission for the exhibition or a residency program. Fiona So for now the co-founders… Sherry You muted yourself Dara Did you hear me?...it’s fine..I have to use my headphone on my phone…(7:20) Fiona I was asking now for the moment the 3 co-founders’ role is just giving advice..not really participate in the operations? Dara They do..they invite us to the team...we have to be always who is going to be responsible for the program... you have to represent your work..if you have any problem..you can ask the team to help..process your own work..you could not decide you..from yourself sometimes..most likely...when you ask..get some decision...you have to why you need them ...what you always speak... Fiona It seems you have very clear roles for each different member..but keep everyone on the same page..through regular communication...different members provide support or opinions on other members job..still have your own autonomy..proposing for the content..for the Sa SA project Dara I couldn't hear the question... Fiona You seem to have a clear role for each member..at the same time you also provide support for each other...communicate regularly. Dara most teams are likely to understand each other..we need to also be clear..who is responsible... among the team..share our list of what we are doing...we have a calendar team working..when we do something..you put online and then they will check it up..so you annual list..inform the team...this week I am doing this ...this week... I couldn't come to work..go to tax company…. our team needs to be tell him the amount...what you are doing..what you need from some else...basically...responsible for yourself...so, they always have their own..own job...you need a lot..not working...that it's also..our director try to....give our member more confident..to clear your mind what you want to do...they also give us have a head..not only ..he need to tell everything..you need to device your own...not only him to decide the team and the director...that’s why we try to be clear what are doing.. Fiona It seems like an ideal way to operate...I am curious about the background of other members and how they join Sa Sa Art Project, is it a similar path to you? (12:30) Dara We have 3 co-cofounder..only one with a background with art..the other study IT and the other study economics..I am from financial and banking...another working as programming...and one more is also he study management and marketing...our another previous member that left..he study law...so uhm...but I think that is very unique for us we had to try to do and learn from our not our properties in university...we have to learn everything new..and try to understand the other as a team. Fiona It is good in a way because you always bring other expertise from other people to Sa Sa Art ..Do you think your finance and banking background helps your work as the resident manager? Dara Actually, I haven't used my background work at all.. I almost forgot everything I learned at university...and then because ...If i want to work on that....my sister..my whole family work as bankers and run their own business..I don't want to work on that...I don't use my background...I could use when I write my proposal and financial plan...what I can do..what I study for 4 years for financial and managing..what I can do..I need to how to settle my expense..I could use..among that...no...you didn't have any practice your work...because...I graduated in 2012 at the same time I haven't used anything till now..eight year...I might have forgot everything... Fiona Most of your work experience is in art and not in banking finance… Dara Basically, also, related to my work I am interested in the economy changing and financial support...I can help the student support their finances and write the proposal...but, just that’s it… Fiona Do other members join art...they join in a similar way to you..starting taking the course..for other members when they join..how do they join..like you? (17:25) Dara How do they join? Basically other members..kind of accidentally to join to our team..is Lina...she...she know about SSAP...we work with NGOs..she was curious about our program and try to join us and follow us..and we invite her...one more is our team..he gallery assistant and designer...he actually is our student ..he study contemporary art class....after he finish he wants to do an internship with SSAP...almost two years now..and become a team working member..another is she is is my co-founder wife...she knows SSAP..and worked at gallery before with me...as the operational manager ..for a couple years..we know our manager..we invite her to work with us...most likely our team ...accidently to join...most of the people to join..they are curious is doing..want to join form their heart..not that we post on our website..or announce to get a team working..never...only intern we post..apply to join...for team workers..we invite our friend we know..”are you interested to join a program?” Fiona Very interesting composition.. Sherry It seems everyone in SSAP is independent and works together..for you what the best part is working together in the collective..what can it bring you in your career or life experience..as a independent art worker..and a member of a collective? (21:09) Dara Basically, as for experience..what I am doing so far SSAP..I understand what is art community...art in Cambodia..basically most likely our team is more independent what we are curious...alone to me..I could not understand about art if if I don't know SSAP..basically they give a lot of our team..create your own project...to the team..then I could say that is more for me to understand myself and also team member also can understand each other as well. In terms of how to know about the art ...understand what is our goal..of our program...if we don't plan...what we plan our goal..we couldn't reach our goal at all..I couldn't not know the word in English..basically I try to...understand each other team..and get back to know about know what is the art community in Cambodia,...for me I try take a look back ...from my experience...past ten years...I could say that ...I don't know to respond to your question..maybe you can get some clue from me? Fiona Can I say uh..this collective way of working..it helps you to..bring you more idea what contemporary arts can be..so, it’s a source of inspiration for you for our own projects, for you life career..life..how you picture your life can be in general…(24:40) Dara I can't say in the team experience...can be like..give me understanding what is art.....about the contemporary..get me to care to reach my goal.. SSAP always represent our program..more like give our team to understand themselves..after that we can understand each other..reach our goal and my goal..what they help give more independence to artists...as to be a team member..not as only a team member...but to yourself..basically what I could spread to my artwork..I understand..what is art to me...and what ..how I represent around to the people around...also..writing the proposal..what I can be doing at the moment as well..because when my experience to me from SSAP give me to reach out to my goal to be an artist..art administration...art administration..like I understand art in gallery ..how to run the art spaces.and art as a collective...give me to understand what is the project ...what we try to do..a real clear about the program ......we have to have a plan clear..that is the goal..move back to my experience..can reach me to be an artist..because can be ..give plan have before..what I want to be..some artist they just do..no preparing..when I do an artwork..quite different..most likely plan and draw the artwork..I prepare a proposal before..I work like that..when I draw from my research...not draw..some artists they draw...and create...I am reading book and writing proposals experience..its could have me..to write proposal..to get my project..my personal funding..I learn a lot to write the proposal..how to write the English..or budget plan..so that is could have me.at SSAP..also...that...is depend on the position work as SSAP...as well..working for the residency..understand the artist what the artist want to do..that can be spread the concept..as a artist as well as art administration… so, that also can have me when I go somewhere around... we can spread those viants to the artists I meet..so that is from my first impression from SSAP to working here. Fiona It is mutually beneficial..beneficial in both ways… Dara Because most likely I always if SSAP not...If you don't know SSAP.. you don't know me at the moment..I always think about ..never think only myself..only for the whole program..not for SSAP, but for the community as well. Fiona Do you see any disadvantages or challenges on the contrary working in this double role of individual artist and as a member of SSAP.. ..have you experienced any struggle or challenge in this…? (31:48) Dara For myself...I have a struggle for one year..I could not what I want..and then that time..our team could not have me..when I want to do something..or have me...you have to be clear what is your goal..help your team..at the time..I don't know what I want to do..very angry..very struggle..as to be the art administration or artist...I could not work for one year...just play around and go out..I was working as the fashion designer...and so I work as fashion designer...I don't know what to do something...worry almost could not wake up from my bed..I just want to sleep..very regretful..our director... He try to ask me what do you want to do..he give me a month..to rest...he said you write anything...for one month..and come back...and I feel like to stop working at the gallery...and I feel like...that is not my..not my goal..what I want..after..one time...open the door of the gallery...I don't want to open the door...I don't know what I want..I want to stop but don't the reason why i don't want to work..now I feel I don't want to work ..they don't give me freedom...SSAP...get me freedom ..they want me..you could..our director..you relax for one month...and tell us..after I come backI just want to be an artist and work as a supporter..feel more comfortable don't force me to do what I don't like..but the struggle is the financial support..when you work at gallery or fashion design you have a lot of money..I can find 500 USD a month..when you lost this...and then you could live on 150 USD a month..it is very a lot of money you have to big change your self..700 USD now 200 USD for a month ...a lot struggle for two years..give me a lot of change..I stay home and just draw...my sister..whole family...when they want to hang out...I don't have enough money...so it’s like stressful...among that..maybe I try to find..a personal project..as a translator or a part-time...not in the everyday..that is a worry..a struggle maybe..in 2017..so it’s it like..the struggle was 2015-2017...after that I said I can like 50 USD per month...it’s not only about money to be an artist..or about money working as a teamwork collective..SSAP don't have enough for salary ...only 50% ...we don't have money...the director said they will pay me back..when we have enough budget...I say anytime is fine..even though work salary ...anyway it that makes me..make me more stronger..I know that...the artist can be...I try to understand..compare the artist without job...have any money from the working...so it’s only get the money when they have an exhibition and sell...and I try to compare..dont sell anything..they don't have any money like me..that is not bad for me..I use this for my reach my goal..and try to stay and keep calm..and do artwork and read book..I just work at SSAP and I don't anything..after that..give me a struggle and..make a person more independence..so yeah (39:56) Fiona So, you found a way to live a life you want with a purpose, without making money and worrying too much..You find a way to live with very basic necessity..that's really good..now you’re chill..no struggles anymore? Dara I feel like I more..comfortable with what I am doing..because when you want to do something I have to be clear before..say what my previous...right now..my struggle only...personal..when I want to do an artwork..the struggle is the..to research project..but, i think this is all artists...so but also I feel like this way give me more confident to be aware that you can find the project..the idea..be aware your work..can sell or not sell..I never think my work can sell. I work ..we never it can sell...even for SSAP...when we teach the students..think about the project..and concept first.. the duty..people will look at this..we are trying reach our goal as more independence artist..and indepence space..because SSAP..is also non-profit..it can be hard for us as well..we need a grant from outside..if we do not have a grant..we do our fundraising..it is our first time..find our own money for ten years...so, also..our first experience that we could find people could have us. (43:22) Fiona It’s a good try..a new way for you... Dara You can ask anything...I still have time till 6pm...Because I have another meeting at 6pm… Fiona We won’t keep you too long...I enjoy your sharing.. Dara I read all your questions...You have a lot of questions...even though you need anything..that we cannot communicate, just send me an email and questions on the list...I could prepare my writing as well Fiona Those questions are general questions on the list we provide to all interviewees..according to different people we interview, we will adjust it..we can just relax…(44:55) Sherry I have a question..I know SSAP is a very experienced and mature organization or collective..I am curious about Cambodia..Is it common for art workers to work as a collective?..How do art spaces run in Cambodia in common? Dara In our experience...SSAP is the only one running as a non-profit as a collective...it’s only running for Cambodian artists..or residency programs for Cambodians..and they have other residencies in provinces near Phnom Penh.but they already close...shutdown because of financial support.. if Cambodian ask to be an artist or be a collective..is...we have serval..support from the government...everyone needs to apply your own grant..need to apply your own project...that also make our Cambodian artists struggle...need someone write down to apply to write a grant..to be a collective...also, a problem is we have be aware of money...one aspect ..I could say we have 3collective in whole Cambodia...three collectives in Cambodia...they are not as a connected...as programming like us...but as a group artist..not to be a program or project...homeless collective...come from the artist group collective...and not collective to run the program..another group...a lady collective...three or four person..have a space..but not for..not run a program..just have space..they can go to the space and share..as a collective..only SSAP that...become a collective..run a program..residency, workshop..exchange program or exhibition...we are not supported by the government...if you want to do in collective..you have to prepare a lot support financial..for the rental and electricity...and in Cambodia is expensive..so I believe if you need a space...to run..at least 1000 per month..so whole artist want to be a collective and..spend budget..some..collective they have their own house..use their own house as the working spaces..so they can run..for SSAP we get the money from outside..use the money to rent the space..we never use our own budget to spend...so, actually, collectives in Cambodia is common but only financial is a bit challenge..I think Taiwan has government support a lot ...they can write a proposal and get a sponsor and help from the government..but for us we have to write a proposal and get funding from outside..we don't have a local sponsor...we don’t have a person to support us...what they support for us.. .from the local ...most of the gallery in the province..most likely running by a (?) person...so that SSAP is run only by Cambodians. Fiona But SASA does have collaborations with other art organizations in Cambodia? Dara We do...we also collaborate with NGOs ...with collaboration with art spaces as well..we also do exchange program and in workshop ...sometimes go to the province...collaboration with fine art university...collaborate with locals in Phnom Penh ...outside as well, Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand, South Africa..US, Japan..We collaboration with some other collective as well.. We could provide spaces for workshops...if they want to do workshops at SSAP..they can come and exchange together. (52:45) Fiona SSAP has quite a lot of collaboration with Taiwanese organizations... Dara Also for..we do exchange programs for residency..we also do special projects as well. Like our co-founder did collaboration in Taipei..our team members meeting in Taiwanese artists...not only in Taiwan ..in SE Asia as well… Fiona At least from my observation..SSAP they are the only art group that is internationally known from Cambodia. (54:01) Dara Really? Fiona You have a great reputation and presence. Dara From our perspective, we would be grateful if we have other collective that run like us ..we try to have what we can do...but we need other spaces to provide for artists...we have only...a year....and two students....4 residency programs..and exchange program and workshops...we just one space...sometimes it is difficult for us to provide..if we have other art spaces..we can do an exchange our students...can our schedule ...students to other spaces as well..but they could not like us now… Fiona Yeah, it takes time, at least you are passing your knowledge and experience through your program...through your school and other workshops ..it’s a matter of time. Dara We have a friend...he is our good friend he is from in France...he is back and and forth in Cambodia..he build a new building that has 5 floors...he providing us residency spaces, providing us gallery, and also bar and cafe for artists..one more space he could run more program..not like SSAP...he invite us give more idea and concept..maybe he will put our gallery for exchange exhibition...for SSAP...we have only one space..we cannot provide everything..this is good for our next collaboration together ..this will be launched in March. Fiona Where did you say the space is? In Phnom Penh? (57:15) Dara Yes, in Phnom Penh...this is a very crowded area..a place for tourist..he bought this house..and he rebuild a new building..he is very rich..Cambodian French...he have a lot of house in Phnom Penh..it is good for... he knows more in art a lot..always support behind the scene..buy in the art world from SSAP..get donation..some program...right now he try to invite us to put our gallery there....so right now..we still consider..work together..it is good we have some spaces. (58:35) Fiona Does this mean that you will move or have two spaces if this collaboration works? Dara Right now we are planning to have if he could the spaces..move our space now..our space will be finished in April this year...for four years..we will finish our contract and we have to move to a new space ..looking for new space..what we plan to do..our friend’s place..is only the gallery...he not running as..he has a space for his studio and residency..for us...a lot of program..only share for exhibitions...we are not so sure...we have to talk ..maybe rent a big space...right now...our space have gallery..working space, residency, library, studio working together..need a new space right now...we need to be aware...not sure if we can find our space soon..right now we are looking for a new space. Fiona In April..that will happen soon..No matter if you will move into that new building of that rich Cambodian French..you will move anyway. (1:00:50) Dara We will move anyway...we have to find a new space...we have the residency program .library...artist studio..office...storage..actually SSAP is compared to outsider...we are running multiple programs..not only residency...but..exhibition, workshop, collaboration, and education...for education we have contemporary art class, contemporary photo art class, and English for artists class..so, our goal and program is very much a lot..I have to find a big space to provide… (1:02:20) Fiona You need to find a place that fits all your needs..we only have few questions left...and if we come up with more questions along the writing process, we will let you know..one of the final questions is: when it comes to collective..no matter as understood as spirit or a way of working..what are the keywords that come to your mind that best represents your idea about collective? Dara Our keyword ...we have been doing is experiment.. So that is a big word..we always use it..so for example, experimental residency program..project...we always try to do different...most likely we always try to experiment with new different media...we always try a new project..when you find...you use the word experiment...you couldn't not find a way for our goal..one more thing is the word “collective” as well, but we use in operation working as team..team instead of collective… and experimental...as well. Fiona Do you think experiments can take place more in a group then for an individual person? (1:04:55) Dara It depends on yourself...not only individual or as group..depend on project you are doing..some..doing as for example workshop..not use...group as collectively..we cannot use individual...SSAP more on the individual works of individual of projects..confident in your job..confident of your position in SSAP more responsible talk...as a team..as a collective..then when you work as collective..when don't know your yourself..it’s a experiment..so that’s what we say...doing something as a team...my program is working...Exchange program in workshop..they wrote in email want to do collaboration..who want to this project..maybe I try to do...you try to..its a experiment..more confident yourself..they come to Cambodia..they didn’t know...you have to...after that… Fiona ...We lost the past 20 seconds… (1:07:30) Dara For example...did you hear? For example..when they come to Cambodia..that program is exchange..going through good or bad..I call to student...want to join the workshop>..if you have time just come..after that..hold this program..it’s good..and I talk with my director..how about I wrote a proposal back..bring my student to Chiang Mai...exchange program is both way...He said I don't if you can do..maybe more experiment..you don't have no budget...then I wrote to the sponsor and the museum..it’s good..I feel surprised..that's why individual....individual yourself... use more as a collective as a team...experiment you find the project..that’s what we could say. Fiona That's interesting..so, experiment and team...any other more related to your experience..any other keywords? Dara Another key word for myself is...try...when I do something for SSAP..I always try to bring something new...if something is bad or good..i don't know..different way I haven't done before..because I never thinking only my job is residency program..I think I could something else.. good for our team..but also not good...Because multiple jobs. In the space..could not touch..personal properties..good when our team away from somewhere...for example When I am away for two months our team can hold and another tea,..it’s like our team always..try to do something..our director also said when you work as collective..you are not working as yourself one job...if work one job..a company it is better.. When I work at a bank...it’s final ...its final..but in SSAP I can do a clear task..working as a designer..postcard designer...maybe we need some person responsible... that’s it. Fiona Other than keywords.. Do you have any images?..We are doing this to every interviewee...besides keywords there might be a picture that comes to mind for their vision or ideal for collective or working collectively....some people say its a tree or net..do you have something like this in your mind? (1:13:00) Dara I do not think I have another keyword to represent this..most likely...what we do always thinking our mission reaches out to our goal..mission..we have to think, mission is what we do..reach our mission complete..most likely when we wrote a proposal..or I do something..I always use the word mission..goal..what I want to do.. If have no goal ..you could not complete what you want...myself plan...right now..my mission this year I want to artist more independence...I try to be clear for myself as the working as the administration..I want be understand clearly about Thai language..my mission this year..I always use this word at the beginning of the year ...I always ask my team what is your mission this year...and then, my mission is to run in the shop..my mission is..grammar study at university..that is mostly my mission..my goal...I think mission for me...I always use the beginning of the new year..this is my mission...if you don't put this word..for me use this when I wanted this something..reach your goal...for myself and the team..our SSAP..our mission is to run more than ten years.. Fiona Ten years longer? (1:16:10) Dara Our mission might be what we want to do in the next ten years... Fiona I like this keyword..mission...any..Just following up the question I was asking..about the image in your head...do you have any visual image when it comes to collective? Dara I think it’s..you mean visual of the team or of me? Fiona Visual of how you perceive working in the collective or with the collective spirit means… Dara maybe..let me try to...can you repeat the question? (1:17:40) Fiona For each interviewee..we will ask besides the keyword ..do they have any particular image in their head.. When it comes to the group or how they perceive the collective..for example..some people will say it’s like a tree..with a big branch with a lot of smaller branches..some people think it's a big web of a lot of things..do you have this kind of image? Dara I see..basically I am going to talk..our collective SSAP..what we are doing..we always think we could..our program..become a pyramid.. Fiona Pyramid? (1:18:47) Dara This is what we do..because when you start to grow...and build something..the background isn't strong..when you go up..it will fall down...not stable at a time..what we have resource..should we our collective….be sure about program..among the team is we should be every person have your own strength..for example..my director is very good at writing English because he study abroad..another is very good on consultant of artworks...for me, I have good relationship somewhere...try to find a residency program..another will build a good way for the team..what our resource have. In term of that..I don't know another collective...most collective I know they have a different job..but they also have strong personal things...when you run a collective..you couldn't work the same job...the collective should have different job ...each person..have their own strong thing..help each other..so that is our team word..for example, the manager is good with marketing...and then another...really good..marketing..so me..good on residency program..I try to collaboration with artists..working a residency program he can also ..writing ...the director writing English abroad...good on preparing proposal..I think that is the resource our team has..I think all collectives should have this..if a team same thing together..could not work..you can’t work..can't write proposal...you couldn't find the money...you cannot run the collective..we always try to put as a pyramid..to be strong and when you go up..it’s more sharp… Fiona You have a solid foundation..with everybody’s expertise and strength and you can reach your goal...very specific. Dara Our team can work as the installation..we try to hire installation workers for an exhibition..everyone can work as an installation worker, we don’t do only one thing, but we have to have a special thing that everyone could not have in the whole team. (1:23:55)