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# System prepended metadata

title: 2021-02-22 WebID CGs crossover

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# 2021-02-22 WebID CGs crossover
Chat
https://csarven.ca/#i
* What's the definition of WebID? (Henry)
  * Name collision - next steps (Sarven)
* State of token binding (Aaron)
* Mechanisms in the browser to differentiate between ClientIDs/Relying Party (Aaron)
* I would be interested to know if they have looked at [Universal Wallet](
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/universal-wallet-interop-spec/
)


11:01
justinwb
q+
11:05
Sarven would you like to manage the queue ?
11:08
https://csarven.ca/#i
sure, osrry missed Justin's
11:09
Daniel Buchner
One is actual identity, one is about obscuring an IDP token exchange
WebFederatedTokenPrivacyTweak
11:12
😄
q+ re webid document as structured data
11:15
Daniel Buchner
Solid WebID and Pods are basically the equivalent of a type of Decentralized Identifier + an Identity Hub personal datastore
Apps store data with users, in their Hubs/Pods
11:16
justinwb
yes that's exactly right
11:16
Daniel Buchner
data is encrypted with their ID keys
remake how half the web apps on the planet work at a fundamental level with true serverless dev APIs
11:17
justinwb
webid similar to did:web
11:19
Daniel Buchner
yep
I would love to see Solid use DIDs, even if just did:web
Brings us all under one common URI scheme and data model
11:19
justinwb
we actually talked a lot about that in the solid editorial session last week - a lot of support for it
11:20
Daniel Buchner
Fantastic - we are here to support you on the MSFT side
11:20
justinwb
excellent
11:21
Daniel Buchner
Pods/Hubs will eventually replace much of email and cloud storage services
We don't need MSFT and Google up in that data anymore  😄
Ooops I work for MSFT
11:25
justinwb
lol
11:25
Daniel Buchner
Imagine what Google tried to propose with roaming Local Storage a while back
this is roaming storage for all apps
A better math co-processor!
navigator.did.requestStorage({ OBJECT_TYPE })
^ that's what we need from UAs
Your PWA fires up, asks for authing a DID, and fires off that storage request
11:32
justinwb
q+ re apps / ecosystem
11:32
Majid Valipour
What is the extensibility model? What if Spotify wants to add its own specific field to this data.  Does it require them go through the standard process to get it into model?
11:32
justinwb
the base schemas are typically open, meaning you can add properties without failing validation
11:33
Daniel Buchner
It's open world, so you could recreated your own types, but industries already huddle around this
Consider the case of Supply Chains:
Across the globe, there is precisely 1 supply chain schema object ontology
GS!
GS1
both MSFT and Google are members of that org
11:34
justinwb
we're doing a ton with health data using HL7 FHIR - similar case
11:34
Daniel Buchner
All companies in the supply chain ecosystem use GS1, the same objects across all companies world wide
If they used Hubs/Pods, they could instantly interop with a common shared conduit
It's about creating one language out of the tower of babel
11:35
justinwb
then allowing disparate apps developed with only knowledge of the data they want to work with, be able to read and write that data in those hubs/pods without corrupting it (but enriching it), and allow people to be able to share that data intuitively
11:36
Daniel Buchner
yep - things like Conflict-free Replicated Data Types help us do this seamlessly
11:37
justinwb
for sure
11:38
Daniel Buchner
DID Comms authenticated encryption FTW
11:40
justinwb
we've made a spec for multi-resource / multi-shape schemas that we use to reference and validate that should work well with those
11:40
Daniel Buchner
Justin, did we just become best friends?
11:41
justinwb
velociraptor!
lol
11:41
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
I'm a bit confused. OIDC and access tokens have no direct relationship.
11:41
yeah, we should touch that
q+ re clarifying OP, RS, client (RP)
11:43
Daniel Buchner
Ironically, Google has the closest dev-analog to the Pod/Hub app experience, with Firebase
we want to make a Firebase that is native to the web, that all apps can use without caring who that backing provider or server is
Fire ALL Your Base, if you will  😄
11:45
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
ID tokens are not designed to be used for authorization. That's why I'm a bit confused trying to understand what issues exist in OIDC.
11:47
current iteration of solid-oidc uses access tokens for that not id tokens which aren't meant for it
11:47
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
Got it. Can you expand on what issues exist with OIDC then? That didn't come through to me
If we're trying to replace OIDC, it is important to understand why / what's wrong with it
11:48
in short RP needs to access data on behalf of the user stored on multiple RSs
RP/client
11:49
Henry Story
Ah here is a chat here!
to Daniel Buchne: I have a proposal to put DID and WebID together here 
https://github.com/bblfish/authentication-panel/blob/HttpSig/HttpSignature.md
11:49
Daniel Buchner
Yeah, need me some Object Capabilities activated via DID-signed invocations
11:49
Sarven I see q+ rrom Tim
11:49
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
just responding to Aaron if possible
11:50
Henry Story
That HttpSig proposal is about token binding
11:51
also about, current solid-oidc draft uses DPoP
11:51
Majid Valipour
Those are OAuth?
11:53
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fett-oauth-dpop-04
11:53
Sam Goto
There are a few problems we think exist in federation today:
11:53
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-oauth-access-token-jwt-11
11:54
Sam Goto
- portability, impersonation, unjustified parties, progressive disclosure and the lack of progressive disclosure
aaron, it would be helpful to converge on whether these are valid problems or not
and what's within the adjacency of possibilities
11:55
Aaron Coburn
Sam, those are all concerns that we share
11:56
if we do next meeting we could prepare agenda upfront
q+ from Sam
11:57
Daniel Buchner
We should definitely fix that, but also just get ride of the IDP in the middle, if we can
get *rid
11:59
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
Here's the current questions from Microsoft's perspective, most of which overlap with Sam/Ken:

How do we eliminate third party cookies and other tracking vectors without breaking federated identity?

How does an identity provider and platform assist a user in selecting a credential with the right balance of convenience and security?

How does an identity provider/verifier request a series cryptographically secure, privacy respecting, and machine-verifiable credentials from a user?

How do we prevent RP and IdP collusion and tracking in consumer federated auth use cases?

How do we ensure seamless SSO across apps and the web for users in work and school environments, regardless of device management status?

And in all these cases, how do we maintain (or improve) user experience?
11:59
Henry Story
I think you use Verifiable Credentials of carious sorts.
12:00
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
agreed ^
12:00
q+ re: WebID to OP delegation in solid-oidc
12:00
Aaron Coburn
q+ re shared issue w/ "NASCAR flag problem"
12:03
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
That is also what is trying to be solved with SIOPv2 in OIDC
12:03
i think this would compare to setting MX records in DNS
for one's domain
12:04
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
SIOP today does not support identifier or key rollover
v2 should address those
12:04
https://csarven.ca/#i
Raised hand notifications disappear for me.. so please q+
12:04
Henry Story
q+
12:04
justinwb
q+
12:04
https://csarven.ca/#i
aaron, henry, justin
I think Ken had a hand up too.
12:05
Daniel Buchner
We need IDs MSFT and Google can't hit a button to erase
Think about a legit version of Gravatar for the internet
native gravatar
that you own, control, and keep independently from an IDP
12:06
Tim
/me rfershes the page as connectioon to mic seems to eb broken
12:06
Sam Goto
delegation oriented flow
https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Sym0k84omyL5Ls1lO6w4aGQ-s4EHrDzo8ZlheyzFOlw/edit#slide=id.ga40b1e6d4f_0_77
(details here)
12:07
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
VC's could replace all instances of X.509 in there ^
(and should 😃 )
12:07
nice, will read after the meeting
12:08
Daniel Buchner
I got you fam! 
https://github.com/decentralized-identity/fuzzy-encryption
12:08
Henry Story
What we both agree on is that we want connectivity, not just complete unlinkeabiity.
12:08
https://csarven.ca/#i
q: aaron, justin, daniel
12:08
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
(MSR: Microsoft Research)
12:09
do you have links to more details on that ?
12:09
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/identity-standards-blog/new-explorations-in-secret-recovery/ba-p/1441550
12:10
thanks
12:10
Daniel Buchner
Pavlik: 
https://github.com/decentralized-identity/fuzzy-encryption
12:11
great
12:11
Daniel Buchner
T of N threshold recovery with human friendly inputs that can be subset shared among custodians
12:11
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
NASCAR problem is this in our list: How does an identity provider and platform assist a user in selecting a credential with the right balance of convenience and security?
12:12
i see q+ from DB
12:14
Henry Story
yes. we do need a policy framework for interaction Agents giving out credentials to Authenticate. But for browsers we need a minimum of an JS API to allow a trusted Agent interact with the wallet
12:14
sounds in direction of 
https://github.com/WICG/webpackage
12:15
Daniel Buchner
Yeah, recovery is a thing that you can swap mechanisms without having the UA know
we don't need to codify this in the UA API surface
12:16
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
And CredMan already exists and can be extended to help broker
either a wallet associated with the browser/OS or a federation provider
12:16
Sam Goto
one question that i think is worth getting some convergence here in this group is: "what browser affordances solid needs to succeed/materialize?".
12:17
Daniel Buchner
Ooops, I forgot we own NPM - I have to stop reducing the position of our products  😛
12:17
Henry Story
q+ on browser affordances
12:17
https://csarven.ca/#i
/me adds Sam to queue and Henry
12:17
I'll copy paste this chat to 
https://hackmd.io/DNaMjyJoRuK14Drk3cmsGA
12:17
Daniel Buchner
Microsoft - Working to remove us from the middle of your life TM
12:18
Henry Story
cool
12:18
https://csarven.ca/#i
Sam, native RDF parsing/serializing would be icing on the cake.
12:19
Daniel Buchner
We need:
1. Ask for an ID from the user (directed to native browser wallet or external)
2. Request data store permissions/capabilities
3. Request presentation of credentials/data directly to the RPs/sits
^ do that, and we all win
12:19
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
Honestly, all roads lead back to 
https://www.accountchooser.net/
we're essentially trying to rebuild this
12:20
https://csarven.ca/#i
Henry et al : 
https://www.w3.org/2011/identity-ws/papers/idbrowser2011_submission_22/webid.html
 -- see Recommended Browser Improvements... may be outdated (c. 2010)
12:20
q+ re: users with multiple devices
12:20
Daniel Buchner
Basically, this:

let response = await navigator.did.requestDid({
  methods: [
    'web',
    'key',
    'ion'
  ]
});

let response = await navigator.did.resolve(DID_URI);

let response = await navigator.did.requestCredential(PRESENTATION_OBJ);

let response = await navigator.did.requestStorage(IDENTITY_HUB_STORAGE_PERMISSION);
I need 4 APIs 😃
12:21
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
Consent fatigue is a real problem though
12:21
Sam Goto
Honestly, all roads lead back to 
https://www.accountchooser.net/
12:22
justinwb
the consent needs to be something that every user can understand perfectly without having to think
12:22
https://csarven.ca/#i
q+
12:22
Sam Goto
<- tim this is what i'm trying to ask.
how much of htis canbe done in userland
12:22
Daniel Buchner
Lots can
12:22
Sam Goto
and if it failed in userland (i.e. account chooser)
12:22
Henry Story
yes that is why the user needs to be able to set policies: eg you can log in authoatically to all the friends of my friends.
12:22
Daniel Buchner
But not the presentation of permission/data request
we can do a lot of set-once-and-remember though
12:23
justinwb
yeah that needs to be done by a trusted agent
12:23
Henry Story
We could put together proposals on what we need.
12:23
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
Account Chooser, but extended to support new paradigms like DIDs, VCs and WebAuthn
12:23
Daniel Buchner
and unlike token refresh periods, it doesn't need to be invalidated like centralized IDP tokens/schemes
It's the RPs, Google, and us chickens LOL
12:24
justinwb
yep
12:25
Henry Story
+1 I agree we the Solid community should put together a documetn of what would be useful in the Identity space for us.
12:25
Daniel Buchner
I can help with that, if we want a converged POV
I have a doc for APIs we need
from browserland
and an extension that demos it a bit
Maybe we can join forces as Microsolid!
12:26
Henry Story
we can cooperate 😃

12:26
justinwb
also have a demo that demonstrates an application expressing access needs for complex verifiable data types and dynamically generating an authorization screen for data in a pod
12:27
Daniel Buchner
Justin, let's you and I sync up
if you have time
12:27
justinwb
yep for sure
12:27
Tim Cappalli (Microsoft)
there's also the W3C slack
12:27
Daniel Buchner
Didder?
I kid
Plus, I can't make realtime puns in GH
12:28
justinwb
lol
e-mail?
12:28

