Hack:Org:X v.5
===

Please join our meetup using BigBlueButton:
https://bbb.ch-open.ch/rooms/ole-1em-nzg-bof/join

Sign up and add your discussion topics here:
https://hackorgx.dribdat.cc/

With thanks to BFH and CH Open for hosting our next meetup!

---

# Invitation

Dear @hack-play-maker

We are excited to invite you to the next Hack:Org:X meeting to discuss the state of hackathon organizing! As a community champion, we value your insights and expertise in shaping the next generation of events & platforms.

During the next meeting, Prof. Debra Hevenstone will present the HackIntegration.ch project - a research collaboration aimed at improving the impact and diversity of hackathons - join us to learn more about it.

**Meeting Details:**

* Date: November 7
* Location: [Video conference](https://bbb.ch-open.ch/rooms/ole-1em-nzg-bof/join)
* Duration: 60 minutes, open end discussion

💭 In our [previous](https://hackmd.io/@oleg/hack-org-x) [discussions](https://hackmd.io/@oleg/hack-org-x-v2) have [highlighted](https://hackmd.io/@oleg/hack-org-x-v3) the [many ways](https://hackmd.io/@oleg/hackorgx-v4) in which hackathons promote cooperation and collaboration in their participants - and how many opportunities we have to do the same across hackathon organizing teams.

Please [RSVP by registering](https://hackorgx.dribdat.cc/login/) on hackorgx.dribdat.cc (if you haven't already), and keeping this meeting on your calendar. We look forward to meeting you, and exploring more ways to elevate the hackathon community together!

Best regards,

Oleg & Roland

PS. some inspiration for our meeting can be found in the [Black Python Devs Leadership Summit](https://youtu.be/p95Cuczqig8?t=1383) a few weeks ago, with very open discussion on the challenges of organizing tech events.

PPS. :musical_note: enjoy the [The Hackathon Song](https://daniemon.bandcamp.com/track/the-hackathon-song) to help get in the :rocket: mood for your next event!


---

# Notes

- [Challenges](https://hackorgx.dribdat.cc/event/7) (Dribdat)
- [Presentation](https://hackorgx.dribdat.cc/project/35) (HackIntegration)
- [Recording](https://bbb.ch-open.ch/playback/presentation/2.3/414bf51bf47d1bb5209d5b2d0c4bf26f61759172-1730994782246) (BBB)
- [Video](https://youtu.be/-nEkW5Xlmew) (YouTube)

*[Join the Newsletter](https://buttondown.com/hackorgx) (Buttondown) to be invited to the next session!*

## Visuals




## Public Chat

- an: Anna Sigrist
- ch: Christian Huber
- de: Debra Hevenstone
- jo: Joseph Gum
- jö: Jörg Berkel
- ol: Oleg Lavrovsky
- th: Thomas Wüthrich
- ro: Roland Brand

## Dribdat log

---

Thanks for posting this question and discussing it with us today: I hope this exchange between organizers will lead to best practices and ideas being more widely shared.
[3 days ago ~ loleg](https://hackorgx.dribdat.cc/project/38#log)

In addition, we have limited seats and we remind people in the last newsletter to cancel if they cannot show up because it occupies somebody else's seat.
[3 days ago ~ Roland](https://hackorgx.dribdat.cc/project/38#log)

At BaselHack we have a no show rate of ±10%. It used to be much higher, until we introduced a 20CHF fee for joining that participants get back at the hackathon (participation is free).
[3 days ago ~ Roland](https://hackorgx.dribdat.cc/project/38#log)

https://tube.switch.ch/channels/6ce2c324 Hackathons organized with BFH and Opendata.ch - Swiss chapter of Open Knowledge, in coordination with the Department of Social Work, BFH-TI, and other departments.
[1 week ago ~ Jörg Berkel](https://hackorgx.dribdat.cc/project/36#log)

---

## Auto-summary

The meeting brought together eight individuals, including hackathon organizers, researchers, and enthusiasts, to discuss various aspects of hackathons and their organization. The conversation covered a range of topics, including team building, participant management, event promotion, and the importance of diversity and inclusion in hackathons. The group shared their experiences, challenges, and strategies for improving hackathons, with a focus on creating a more inclusive and engaging environment for participants. They also discussed the potential for hackathons to drive social innovation and the need for open data and collaboration among organizers. The meeting concluded with a call for continued collaboration and the sharing of resources and best practices to enhance the hackathon community.

(generated with [Cohere Coral](https://coral.cohere.com/))

---

## Chat log

(public chat in BigBlueButton)

---

ol 00:02:58
My last emoji: 🎐

an 00:03:58
last emoji: 😁

ol 00:04:02
Debra's emoji: 👍

th 00:06:32
👌🏼

ol 00:06:38
Joseph: 😭

ol 00:07:58
Roland: 👍🏼

ol 00:12:33
Jörg:

           _
          /(|
         (  :
     __\  \  _____
   (____)      |
  (____)|      |
   (____).__|
    (___)__..|__
       SStxseism

jo 00:18:56
If there's a paper on the VersusVirus Team Algorithm I'd love to see it and compare it to other algorithms that are out there for sorting participants

ol 00:20:27
Joseph, a preprint is at https://hackorgx.dribdat.cc/project/10

ol 00:21:11
Here's an open access Nature article on the Lloyd Shapley and Alvin Roth Nobel award: https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2012.11607

jo 00:21:21
Thanks!

ol 00:22:24
The source code to our matchmaking app developed with a small consortium of hackathon organizers in 2020, is at https://github.com/VersusVirus-Hackathons/VersusVirus-App

jo 00:23:57
Here are two I've been involved with before:

jo 00:24:00
Astronomy - https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0231939

jo 00:24:14
Neuroscience/Climate science - https://elifesciences.org/labs/5ed408f4/neuromatch-algorithms-to-match-scientists

ol 00:25:39
🙇🏻🙇🏻

jö 00:28:31
🏅

ol Oleg Lavrovsky
00:34:19
https://www.recognition.swiss/

jo 00:34:46
Do you have a standard template for uploading events? Anything following a standard like schema.org? (Asking because we're developing something for this)

ol 00:35:30
Dribdat implements the Schema.org Hackathon standard which we proposed in the first place. There's some information here: https://dribdat.cc/whitepaper.html#interoperability

ol 00:35:52
Relevant to this is also the Open Event Data initiative, what Anna I think wants to alk about shortly.

ol 00:38:46
Actually looks like Anna wants to explain something else, but see https://www.openeventdata.ch/

jo 00:39:03
We can follow up later but Alex Nolte will be giving a presentation about his hackathon survey dataset, 46 events, 1000+ participants and counting at Hack the Hackathon in a couple of weeks. I'd be interested to compare the survey and dataset he has with your surveys and datasets

ol 00:39:56
🦸🏻

ro 00:41:27
My colleague Christian is trying to join too, does he need an individual invite link?

ol 00:41:33
No, it's public.

ro 00:42:10
he is getting "you have been removed from the conference"

jö 00:42:21
https://bbb.ch-open.ch/rooms/ole-1em-nzg-bof/join

ol 00:42:22
Weird!.. I am not seeing any requests to join.

ol 00:42:32
Thanks Jörg

ro 00:42:47
maybe i shared my live link. thanks

ol 00:45:00
The meeting is being recorded, and if there are questions and comments we can look into them afterwards via Dribdat & GitHub.

jo 00:46:13
My events are very different from yours... a bit of money, and we are oversubscribed generally, so we sometimes have waitlists for people to get in that fill any gaps. But we also give out financial support for participants

ro 00:47:34
Jumping back to no showWe have a recipe for the no shows

de 00:48:03
Our children's educational program provider: https://ginkgo-educa.com/de/home-de/

de 00:48:25
website: https://hackintegration.ch/home

an 00:49:13
curious to learn about your recipe Roland! If we don't have time today maybe we can do a catch-up with anyone interested as a follow-up

ol 00:49:21
Roland: I've made you the presentor - can you quickly share your screen and give us a glimpse of the new BaselHack platform?

ro 00:50:33
I would leave this honor to Christian

ol 00:51:20
Information on Hack the Hackathon: https://hackthackathon.github.io/
Some thoughts from last year's event in Geneva: https://hackorgx.dribdat.cc/project/19

jo 00:55:39
We will be hacking on our website during the event because it is barebones right now

jo 00:56:07
I managed to wrangle a makerspace for this event as well

jo 01:00:05
https://f1000research.com/collections/hackathons/about-this-collection

ch 01:00:06
I think my microphone is broken

an 01:00:46
I have to drop out. let's keep in touch about the no-show and pot. solutions. Was nice to meet you all and thanks again for the great inputs Debra!

jö 01:03:03
Thx & see you next time 👋🏼

ol 01:07:19
https://ord.akademien-schweiz.ch/en/preis/registration-ord-prize/

---
END OF PUBLIC CHAT

## Raw Transcript

(generated by YouTube)

---

is it a meeting with just the four of us cuz maybe I'll go through quicker then so it's not too much blah blah and we can have more

interaction I no I think so that we have Thomas and Joseph joining we have definitely a couple more participants coming in Hey Thomas I always feel like a little awkward like presenting with like three people like you could just chat you know no we'll do a little bit of an introduction and then you can you can jump into your topic and I know that Anna also wants to present something so we have to be a little bit conscious of time and I'll try to keep okay keep us well paced should I try to shut up by like quarter 20 pass would that be the goal yeah I think so I mean giving uh Onna maybe 10 minutes or so quarter an hour to present her topic um and I really would love to hear also from Roland and Joseph if Joseph you're on the line as well I can see you muted but I think you're here see Joseph on the

list there yes we can see you fantastic welcome everybody it's so good to good you're here so we're we're basically live and and the session is being recorded and a couple of people might join but I suggest that we just go ahead and everyone takes quick uh few few seconds to introduce yourself and maybe just um uh I I would suggest just you name the last emoji that you used in whatever chats or Communications programs you're using like just take a second right now and just open up your phone and see what is the last emoji that comes up on you know that emoji keyboard I just love to do a funny little crowdsourcing right now um so in my case I will get the ball rolling and it is wow I don't even know how to how it's called but it's this Emoji which looks like it's this this Japanese Chinese like a ball with a string attached wait a second uh here can you see it in my chat with deor here anyone know what that is it's like a wind Chine or something it's like a bowl with little flowers on with a little piece of paper attached something

Asian I'll put it into the chat that way there's no confusion about that so anyway I will I'm OLG I am the organizer of many hackathon events I'm also an extremely eager partip ipant in hackathon I develop hackathon software and I am here to welcome you all to this wonderful meeting of hackathon organizers and I'll pass the ball over to Deborah to say hello hi my name is Deborah uh my most recent Emoji was a thumbs up to my rock climbing partner because we found a date to climb together um and who am I um I'm a doent and professor in soci social policy so in social work at the uh bayfa and I'm here because I'm doing a project with o that I'm going to talk about Lots later so I don't I won't say too much more um I pass to Anna thanks debah hi everyone it's nice to get to know you I work at open dat. CH I joined rather recently we figured out just before you guys joined that it's only been three months even though it feels a bit longer which in a good way not in a bad way uh I'm mostly in charge of the Glam projects that we have at open data and a big part of my work are also hackathons so I'm very curious and eager to start this conversation with all of you and I pass on to

Thomas just put your emoji into the chat if you forget hey guys so first of all thanks for introducing me to another video call software so like this one is really uh really really easy to to get along with just wanted to say that so I'm getting a lot of these emojis recently I actually sent them and get them a lot we just recently had a hackaton which is called the sports hack days o thanks for joining us there and being a and being a a great hacker and coach and and supporter yeah good to see that so thanks a lot for that so uh yeah we had an amazing two days uh I work in the field of sports data analytics I'm in the founding stage of my own company with others and the hack days I would say are an integral part of you know the educational efforts that we're doing in sports uh and of course the matchmaking efforts between you know Innovation at universities the technological opportunities that are around and the Very Legacy oldfashioned kind of industry which is the sports industry so that's uh that was a success and um very much looking forward to hearing what you guys have to say today and and and and also chat a little bit about you know how everything could be could get on a bigger stage when it comes to hackaton as well and I have to say hi from Marina Marina she's she works at MCH group they are the ones organizing the hack syc so pretty much our big brother I would say these days but they they are on hold and they are very much looking forward to bringing this concept back on on active again maybe with you guys or not but they're super interested in in getting to know you but it just didn't work out for her today so hi from

Marina oh I have to pass on H Anna you're the next you're up next did oh on no no seriously so I I'm struggling a little bit with it so Joseph go ahead

okay uh hi I'm Joseph gum I'm in San Diego and maybe you can see the beautiful view of the beach out of my office um I work for the National Science Foundation National Center of atmospheric research here in the US and the last Emoji I sent was a crying face I don't think I need to explain this to any of you uh but a lot of the Emojis I've been sending in the last two days have not been particularly happy um but I also do a lot of scientific uh educational Workforce Development hackathons um I am the current chair of the organizing committee for hack the hackathon volume 4 which will be held here in San Diego unfortunately our funding sources being from the Federal government meant that we couldn't support anybody from outside the US but um we still have space for virtual attendance um and I'm looking forward to um hopefully meeting all of you in person um for the first time or again next year I I've heard a lird saying that it might be in Copenhagen next year um and I'll pass it to Roland

hi um the last Emoji I used was a plain old thumbs up too um for a uh Buck I confirmed to to take care of it was my uh my buck so I need to look at it I'm a software developer that's why I keep chasing box and um I have uh I'm one of the co organizers of basle hack um which just took part this weekend last week the last weekend yeah

uh uh how many people are in the call I think the six yeah that's that's everyone yeah so I think we we can we can oh no we have someone else joining y last but not least my good friend the link dude I found the link I checked the not and I found it because yes finally all right there is a bit of a scavenger hunt involved in this um where where just at the end of the round everyone said a couple words about themselves and mentioned the last used some conversation or context so please just a few words about yourself and one emoji ah one emoji didn't understand the last one thank you um just uh I I'm uh at the University of applied sciences uh in the meantime and I didn't leave the building and so there might be some noise around my name is y barel I'm a um yeah mostly a system engineer and facilitator uh doing lots of linox stuff and I'm the Man uh who who drives the exm environment land stick forward we have an XM environment to boot a l Linux system from stick and uh yes I'm I'm doing lots of interesting stuff and uh like hackathons and working together with people and uh one emoji I is like the thumbs up to see seeing you and see that there there people interested in um uh how you say in in exchange collaboration and interdisciplinary is is a a big point because in all my career before I worked at the University of teacher education mostly like in the media field and now I do more computer science stuff again for my for my heart which I always like open source software and stuff and so I'm I'm glad to always to learn each day new stuff in user interfaces in communicating with people in so this is fun like interdisciplinary working and so I guess that's the real place I need to be with you thank

you fantastic okay I'm gonna have to figure out some way of inserting an Sky art thumbs up into the chat for y York in the meantime I suggest that Deborah we get started with the presentation slides you've got up tell us please about Haack integration okay I think yor might know about it people in his lab worked on the website for me so he probably knows that's it the same team with the people who did like the the user interface and uh the yes the single page application stuff and yes everything comes in a full loop so um now you'll get to learn a little bit more about the project at the beginning I felt like it was just about the website but um it's about a lot more so this is a project that brings together um kind of a lot of crazy stuff I was introduced to hackathons by Oleg and I helped organize the hack for social good um just hackathon and I've had many years of experience working in labor market integration research and I've also done a little bit of research on um in economics on matching some simulation work with matching and weirdly this experience sort of all came together um in this new inos Swiss research project that we have it's called very long um hackathon bringing High skill refugees and jobs together through diverse hackathon teams shorter we're calling it hack integration for now um it's like this huge collaboration with like a weird mix of people OLG and open data on one side and then on the other side um then University of Zurich is an academic partner two labor market integration programs mosted of be pyo power coders maybe also capacity in Zer and um s the uh department for migration in fir so there's two kind of all it always gets upset every time I present it is like two separate streams of the project but there's two separate streams of the project and I'm going to talk more about one here um in this presentation but I wanted to mention the other piece the other piece is that we're looking to use hackathons to help um High skll uh refugees integrate into the labor market so I guess you probably all know that like high skilled refugees don't get jobs in their area even if their qualifications are recognized they don't get jobs in their area it's a lot about discrimination not thinking qualifications are as good and after I experienced a hackathon I was like wow this is so cool you can like show what you can do and it seemed to me like this is much better than a lot of the frankly [ __ ] labor Art Market integration programs that I've been studying for 20 years which are about just like resume writing so that's like the social work uh side of the project um the part of the project that I was going to talk about here is about teens inclusion and diversity so I was made aware and I'll explain that um in the next two slides about some of the problems we had in our own hackathon and I started to hear from other hackathon organizers about getting teen balance and sorting right I'll talk about two problems with that in the next slide and then I was like okay I started to look at very I could find very few suggested matching and what I could find ignored preferences and had things that I learned about my economics training that were like very typical problems seen in matching uh stuff what we call unraveling like rushing to rematch in the last minute something that we call lacking stability in matches it's when people like when you have two pairs that would rather be together than with the what their match to if people want to switch that's called like unstable anyways it was like kind of like a test case you learn at the University of like a bad match and I was like okay I can learn everything we use at the University to make um a good match so we thought well maybe hackathons would be a cool place a new application for these kinds of matching algorithms these class of matching algorithms it's called deferred acceptance and while I was writing the Grant I was pretty intrigued that economics and computer science have pretty distinct views of of what is matching they use the same term for very different things and I'll explain what this is but um if you're from a computer science background it's probably a little different um and we in this computer in this algorithm we want to look at individual's preferences and skills and take into consideration team size and skill needs and then we thought okay we can test this at some events and look are people more satisfied with working with their team do people listen to each other are they more like equal in terms of the skill do they produce better there's all sorts of different outcomes you could look at right and of course on the other high skill labor market integration side we'll look if people improve improve their professional networks get jobs have higher incomes Etc um uh that is the labor market integration which I'll skip in in a in interest of time uh the website that your group made for us hack integration seha has um two interactive pieces um maybe I shouldn't show I shouldn't show it the slides are going you can go yourself there's two different pieces one is if you click on this button hack Finder right here then you get a list of hackathons you can add your own hackathon and all the hackathons are plotted on a map so you can choose like where to go hover over get more information about it and it's like a general tool to find a hack to participate in the main goal of that for right now is for us to have the refugees have a central place to go to where they can choose events in long one we would like it to stand alone and just be available to the community and it's a question right now of like where it'll go and stuff the other interactive um piece of the website is this tab called registration and that's where refugees can go ahead and choose an event they want to go to agree to us linking their data and then um they can prove that they've registered and done everything and then we send them 20 20 Fran and we give them a survey later and we yeah we see what happens okay so the part I'm I'm here to talk about a few things in the end I'll have a slide like what I want from you why why I asked Ole to let me present one is to have people of course use the hack a hack finder to post events give me information about events and want to continue using it also to do user testing because right now we're we're still improving the website the other piece about this like uh matching is I wanted to give the example that hackathon I organized it was my first hackathon hack for social good um now it's an annual event and we had things like a twers team and a 14ers team and a team that had like no programmers and then a team with like no social worker which is is important for us at our event to have this kind of balance and I know that ol and a lot of people I talk to are like it's so important the dynamic who you like you know it's about yourself being self-driven but like when I assigned colleagues for bureaucratic reasons to a team they had fun really like engaged in what I assigned them to so I was like okay there's maybe some room for suggesting something here then I mentioned to ol hey maybe we could do some kind of team suggestion thing and O was like hey we did that and he let me look at his Cod at their code not his code their code from the versus virus online event where they used a matching algorithm like out of out of dire need I guess because it was such a big event and it was kind of like in the economics literature you would expect it to turn out bad badly it was like um I I I relooked at it today and they started like the code with like um this is only for the English and the German speakers the other teams went a little bit differently but they would randomly select individ individuals test if the relevant skill was in the team they would they would assign if they needed that skill and then they would repeat and when all teams were filled they would seed a new team based on one person having that topic of Interest so it's kind of like preferences came in but very slightly and More in theing than in the Sorting if that makes sense and then this was like kind of very typical for stuff you read about in the economics matching literature there was um there was no question about team building but 10% of their participants left a comment about it which I feel like is huge if you're not like if 10% of people just choose to talk about something maybe like 30% were thinking about it if you didn't even ask about it and the comments were things like team matching Pro process was a bit kka esque we lost a whole day to figure out who was on the team the team wasn't motivated for the challenges then we had to build another team we decided a new one so people were kind of unhappy about it and so then I said to O well let's do it this way let's use um matching algorithms from economics these have been applied in lots of appli they've applied in applied settings they've been applied in a lot of settings to date um they're used when there's no price-based market so you don't want to like auction off a seat in a challenge team you use it when there's the possibility of a centralized Clearing House which we have here when people register for an event as an organizer you have a clearing house so to say and this is the trickiest part you use it when there's preferences and that's tricky because I think people have preferences going into event but it changes if somebody's like inspiring or whatever right it's a little bit Dynamic where it's used so far is there's or organ donor uh recipient matching matching residents to hospitals students to dorms or my nephew was recent match to his high school in New York City using this kind of algorithm um and I have a picture of somebody from Iran and Iran is the only country in the world where you can where you can sell a kidney which is H not great and a link in the slides um or like will distribute the slides later to more information on the Nobel Prize in 2012 was um about these kinds of methods we're not in like an economics class I didn't want to go too much into it but I thought I'd quickly explain how the algorithm works because it's pretty different the computer science approach it's like this the first paper that proposed this was in like 1950s or 60s and they were thinking about dating and it was just a theory paper at the time and they were looking for a stable match so where couples come together and like no boy and girl are in a different pair who' rather be together that was like the goal of the paper um each man and woman has strict preferences and in this in this algorithm males offer and females can temporarily accept so what that means is like let's say I have let's say I have a list and my list is Thomas ysf Roland yeah and Roland's First Choice is um Anna or something and he'll make an offer to Anna and she doesn't have anyone so she'll say yes for now but just temporarily right that's why it's called deferred acceptance then the next next person in the list of people is Joseph and his favorite one is Anna too so now he comes and makes an offer to Anna she says oh he's higher on my list so now she dumps Roland and she takes ysph as an offer yeah so that's how it goes the girls hold they always will take someone to have someone but if a better offer comes along they get rid of the Lost offer and the men can go through and now that Rand lost Anna then he' say ah Deborah you're my second choice I'll make you an offer and in a computer prr it's easy because you just like Loop through of course um the men and then you do the yeah you see what's cool about this algorithm is that there's many different stable Solutions you come to you find one of those stable Solutions what's interesting is that it's Nao optimal so the side that makes the offers on the market is the side with the highest utility yeah so this is important for the hackathon um application what's cool also about it is that in empirical applications there's no unraveling people are generally satisfied and nobody tries to match outside of it so it's not like you set up your hackathons teams and then everyone runs and it's like this team is crap I want to reorganize right um what's also nice is that it's mostly strategy resistant so you can't get a better match by faking it and saying like oh really I like this one better than that one you know there's other matching approaches that aren't like that you can be tricked um we're talking not about a onetoone match but a many toone match um I don't I want to move forward but I want to just say that a many toone match has the same properties where one side offers and the other side temporarily holds an offer until offer stop being made but what's different is that a truncation strategy can improve a match quality yeah so there's there's a room for strategy but as the pools get bigger the potential for strategy declines yeah so uh mostly it works but not as well as the one the one to one and there's pieces of this and um yeah so I want to propose to do that so what do I propose to do exactly so when you set up the event you have a certain number okay that's not quite true at our event we have a certain number of challenges there's other events that have flows and self- proposed challenges and so on but let's go with the kind of an event where you have a certain number of themes or topics yeah for each topic you have a team size minimum and maximum and you have the relevant skills that you might need in that um in that group to work together then you have a whole list of people those people each have a list of the things I'm interested in it could be a ranked list or an unranked list and I'm interested in maybe actually looking at the algorithm with ranked and unranked those people also have skills and they can have mult multiple skills and because you want to optimize participant experience not your challenge offer experience we would have the people be the offering side so if I'm really interested in um I don't know One Challenge maybe how to make a better match unit on all's website or something then I would put that as my number one I would offer it they would look are my skills relevant and they would accept it as long as there was space for that person in that skill they would just like Anna with the rejection if someone better comes along if their team is full and a new offer comes and it's for a skill that's under represented or not at all represented in the team then the algorithm would dump the last prior um acceptance and this offer process Loops through until it stabilizes and then there's no new offers and then the idea is then we would inform participants of the suggested team before the event and then they could do whatever they want it's just like a late nut you know maybe in an email maybe when they log onto the platform did you think about working on this and the hope is that if we test something like this maybe we won't have a two-person team or a team with no software developers or whatever then we have to measure like did it work because that's like not known at the end of the event and we have two sources of information um I want we're going to have a survey and there we'll ask about participant background offense sa satisfaction team experience and personal benefits and then there's what olle can scrape from his website if it's an event hosted by drip jat and in that case we have things like team uploads or team switching or the time until the last member joined the team and we wanted to keep it Anonymous but linkable so I was going to ask for the handle people used in the survey yeah what did you use at the event for your handle if they were if they remember hopefully where we are in the project is we have mostly the website done um and we've been sort of uh testing it I'm working on recruiting events um that's partially for you guys I'm also working on recruiting events that want to try it that we have three ready which I'm surprised because I didn't even start recruiting yet and we're also looking for feedback on the post event survey and also willingness to use it I think it's very attractive to have a pulled data set using consistent questions across many events not just for my own research but for other people who are running events to improve their events you know so if you can anonymize them and pull those then it's kind of sexy for everyone and we can all share access to the data and so I have a draft of a questionnaire to try to make it kind of easy for people what I think should be in there but but I'm very open to edits and so I'll I don't know if I post it here get to OLG or on the djet website or whatever but um that's something I'll share and I would be happy yeah also for feedback on that and willingness to use it and for all of us to pull our data so I've kind of said everything but I'll here's like the summary my offer is publish publish your event in hack finder do you want to try a team suggestion or you could be the r we thought about doing a random control group or just using unregistered events as a control if you want to use a random suggestion um our offer is this pre-made standardized event evaluation instrument that you have you we're open to edits and my other offer is hopefully at the close pulled anonymized cross event data to inform future event improvements what I want and why I'm here is I want you to come to me and list your event I want user feedback on the website did you add your event was it difficult what can we change um I want your event to maybe think about using our team suggestion or be willing to be a control group um feedback on the survey and using the survey after your event um and that's pretty much it I put my information here so you could find me did I make it in time oh I'm perfect I was shooting for half past that was really good you are you get the the champion medal for me for the exact on time thank you Deborah so much um I think we we should definitely take a few questions um and get some discussion going a little uh I also want to give um some time to un enrolling to say few things but um I'll I'll just take the opportunity to to thank you Deborah for you know getting the ball rolling here um first of all recognizing the work that people have done you know during the pandemic and through a lot of these hack communities to try to create a a safe space and just this idea that we've been developing of kind of like hackathons for everyone I think is is really important um doesn't get enough attention you brought it up to a very high level to you know National scientific project level which I hope is is the sign of things to come um you mentioned one thing I think that's kind of you know I think really important to just reiterate you said that as pools get bigger the potential for strategy declines what do you exactly mean by potential like potential to build Fair teams or just the potential to I had this in my academic slide but I cut it out because I figured it wasn't like I'm teaching right now but um you can see with this example we came to one stable solution where everybody um like a a offers first uh number three and is that right uh yeah a offers first number three then B offers number two c offers one Etc um but if one group uh one of the hospitals truncates their list and says like I would only take people A and B and I would definitely reject person C they can get um you can come to a stable solution that is better for uh this is Hospital one um it's possible but that's only in an example here where four people and three um hospitals you know and as you move to a pool of hundreds of people and 20 hospitals or something then um truncating lists doesn't work so you so you're basically kind of reflecting on the optimal team size so sometimes hackathons have guidelines around what what what is what is the size of team and just having that right balance between the team size and the number of challenges that's what affects the pools it's not you're not saying that bigger hackathons per se um have less potential for strategy no I I think that what I was actually more trying to say is that in academic Theory it can be scammed but once you get to the size of an actual event it can't be scammed cu no no event is going to be small enough that you can have this kind of strategy that's what I was kind of trying to say I was trying to sayal terms yeah it's suboptimal but in Practical terms this context it's

okay gotcha does anyone have questions for

de would you be

interested some question and and the comment so for the survey I'd be really interested to have a look because it's one topic that I'm looking into currently to improve on our side so I would be very interested to see if we can bring it together so that would be really cool um because also many times our our events it it's nice to compare to other events and more events because we have quite a few hackathon but still it's always nice to make it bigger so that's very cool um what just a very practical question how it would work with um the team matching so it would require kind of the challenges to say we need um like five to 10 people and two of them should have X skill Etc and then the participants would also already have to have a kind of pre-filled profile of what they can bring right that's is that correct that's correct so I've had it in mind we have we're working on program together all and on the fourth um we've already made the the key to make it work is that this list of skills has to be or would work better if it's something that's similar across all events and so we were trying to make a topology that will always work and I feel like we're almost there we had a meeting with someone recently who had almost the same typology for happen stands and we were like okay the thing that was tricky there's certain things that always come up like data It software skills design and business and then there's all sorts of specific things like at our event we need social workers but usually I found that we can label that as like Professional Event specific and that's a general enough label that it could it could work I had in mind it could be programmed two different ways you could program at least one person with each of the following skills or one could make slots per skill one could do think of Designing different criteria we just have to make it consistent so that it can you know you can upload and and auto run and not adjust straight but um yeah

and i' just like to maybe note here that there's a very much an open data topic here um the sbfi the Swiss kind of office uh States for Education research Innovation they they uh have a platform called recognition. Swiss where kind of like they help people from other countries come into Switzerland and get equivalence diplomas and so on there's a a database of all the kind of skills and you know talents that you could possibly have across the entire world of work right and you know if you think about hackathons um we have these kind of very generic skill levels skill sets but there's there's a much more complex reality that we're kind of you know ref by definition it has to be very Broad and no one will be satisfied with it to me that ends in some sense yeah it will just have to be relatively BR work

so maybe like Roland you just you literally just run an event last weekend what do you think you going to sign up Basel hack next year to take part in this or what what would you say your team building issues it sounds really interesting and I have one uh question about pre-formed teams I mean we we keep having this um I would call it phenomenon because it's it's not really that we think it's good or bad or one of the two um but uh some teams are preformed and they they really know that they will be a team on the hackaton and um how would your algorithm handle this does it even have to handle it or is it I mean a form team is already done and uh you just have to take care of the

others I think you're on mute you to be already answering I was saying that um ol and I have already talked about this and sort of my Approach we have a working paper that we wrote together where there's like some pseudo code of how we would go about it and I formed the teams that are like the self form teams as separate and didn't put them in the pool this is very different then when you look at the versus virus code what they did is they said all teams should be 10 people and they took um smaller than 10 teams and randomly assigned people from the pool to the that team um but I my personal I mean I'm I'm open to different ideas to dealing with it but I had in on my head that we're just going to pull them out and not let them run

through there was a maybe [Music] one go ahead one thing I can share for uh from uh an innovation we tried at the the past bulac is um we preformed the Team Tools like uh you could pre like a show um bookmark uh challenge but that was not not uh exactly the team joining yet but we had a first idea of uh which challenges are more interesting and need more teams and we could still uh like assign tables to to them and had a rough idea how many teams are there going to be and um the the team joining was then a different thing than the the bookmarking yes so that would be like for us just people ranking or listing the teams that they're interested before but then on top of that we come with a suggestion so it's like the same thing as you're doing with an intermediary so Clearing House step kind

of

maybe okay how was your experience with that sorry

sorry I was just curious to ask Roland how the experience was with the bookmarking did people appre it was a lot was there any anything you learned from it

specifically um we still have to to to wait for the the feedback to to drop in we have we had an online form and uh uh still waiting for for answers but uh what we experienced from from a logistical persp perspective was uh that uh well it went much smoother this year than than last year when we had a physical tee building and I mean the the solution was uh similar to what you can do on on drip to to that you can immediately swap a team and and and it's digital and I think this is really important to to have like a uh an immediate digital representation of the team so like the unravel that may occur doesn't occur from administrative uh reasons because you you decided I want to join these people and half an hour later um a helper of of of the hackaton tells you no they are already full sorry because uh uh communication is just slow because it's on on paper so uh digital processes are really important because uh you always have some a source of Truth what's already uh

de so just in the interest of time it's 20 to6 and we can go a little bit over time but I really want to make sure that Anna gets a chance to speak about her thing and Roland youve already started talking about basle pack but basically I want to make sure that you both have enough floor time to present some ideas and Anna would you like to share your screen um take over from Deborah just just talk I I'm actually just going to talk I feel terrible after this professional presentation from Deborah to just Babble but them it's really more I wanted to use uh the chance to have other hack organizers to really share experiences and it's on a very like practical level so um having the the little experience from a few from a few hackathons that I have now um some issues that I see and that I'm really curious to hear whether you experience the same and whether you have solutions for them is um first of all um we have huge no-show rates and like all our hackathons are for free so it's very easy to sign up and decid a day beforehand well okay I have other stuff to do but I was really curious whether you have similar experiences if you have developed some strategies that work um to make people up or at least tell us that they're not coming that would already be cool um so that's one thing and the other is just um in terms of participant management more um on a tool level um we are current using htoo for um like as a CRM and it's it works but I was just also curious to hear if you have anything that you use that you're really like this is awesome if you can change you should go for it it's really I really wanted to use this platform to have a a very open exchange and just yeah make use of your brains and experiences to to hear if I can get some idea for our hackathons as

well so Anna I mean that's probably when I can jump in I mean first of all deborra thanks for for the input I was quiet because I was quite astonished what one could do in terms of matchmaking uh and I would love to hear more about this but Anna coming back to your questions I mean we recently had our first I would say uh outside of University hackaton so we made it a private thing sort of uh where it was where it used to be a you know we had two or three editions where it was organized through the university so mostly students got some ECT points which made things way easier when it comes to noow and we also took them by the hands way earlier and this time we just basically advertised it within the the skill set that we were looking for mainly sports but Sports data science including computer science sports management and we had the same issue 50% Nosh show deeply deeply um um disappointed and uh obviously I blame it on ourselves because we were a bit ni naive I guess you have way more experience so you're not naive anymore but you still have the same issue so I would love to discuss that in more dep I have some ideas but that was Pro probably be too much for today and the other thing when it comes to data management or let's say kind of CRM as you call it I mean how do we handle the the uh the entire process I I Ed the hopspot uh the free version obviously I don't pay for this kind of service uh it it it does the job it's not perfect I'm also happy to share but again maybe outside of this call because that would go beyond the time um but I think that could be a that could be very interesting to actually get together more often and exchange these kind of ideas and and potential improvements because we all have the same issues I just realized we have no show too so so good we have some students who participate and that has the that positive side we have because we also have like um Financial prizes we had a prize associated with like your if you use the idea for your thesis and a general prize a both of those I think helped a little bit we still lost maybe I don't remember maybe o know better I feel like it was like 20% too much with the catering it worked out okay because we had when I the year that I was responsible for we actually had extra kids showing up for the kids program so we just moved food from the adult program to the kid program but um it was it was a problem and we haven't fixed it yet that's another thing that that's um while you're just doing General things I'm in a big group that helps organize this thing and I'm one of the only people who feels very strongly about having like a children's program and I pushed it through that we're going to fund again this year so that people like me because I have a kid that um can take part and when we're recruiting refugees that's going to be an issue because there's a lot of Ukrainian women but anyways I don't know do you guys do CH Child Care at your events or I mean not child care we offer a parallel Tech program for the kids they're learning about I about programming robots and about binary code bracelets and all sorts of different stuff B the the idea is amazing I uh I used to run a sports club and there it was a similar thing but there the kids were occupied so we had to make sure the parents get something to do in the meantime so vice versa but anyhow I mean I love it and it always gets to the same problem right so if we do our hackathons uh Standalone everyone does a little thing 50 participants there 30 there maybe a hundred ones we all run into the same issue it's so hard to organize these kind of programs for one sort of small to maybe midsize event so I would love to hear how we could actually find synergies here because these kind of programs take time to organize they need to be professional you need some money for this too or at least book some money for this too so I'm just wondering how how would you do that how do you do it I I can answer this for for two different runs I've had the first run we used paben which was very very cheap because they used they had I mean they do it as part of a class assignment we paid them an hourly rate for while they're there and they have all the materials from the Paya to the last run we looked for payha to do it and they wouldn't do it through having a daughter who school age um I signed my daughter up for like a science camp um sometimes in the summer holiday so I know a woman who finished her PhD in like biologic science and she has like an educational oeler for children and she's been building up her business she does a lot of like the Som and she has like a science club and her husband's also a PhD at the University and they just do the coolest experiments my daughter like loves this camp and my daughter is more of like a singing acting kind of child than like a science child and so we asked her to do our upcoming hack for social good I had to increase the budget to like 25 or something when I counted the hours of prep and everything and then I'm going to fund raise that through um internally so the first time I got away with like uh 800 because it was partially funded by the Paya and then I've gone up to like 25 but I think she's interested in expanding and I can say she's incredible just like incredible I mean know this this topic reminds me that I mean Thomas you mentioned it right we have digital Switzerland and these high-profile hackathons and Switzerland currently there's a massive advertising campaign running for her hacks the woman hackathon um where again like you know having diversity recog uh needs recognized uh and also really rethinking what makes an event attractive for women or for other you know populations um is is the order of the day and I I really would like to see hackup be an a place where Innovation like social Innovation happens where you know you know of course it's like it's like a tradition that unconferences bar camps you know even scientific colloquiums in the past we we we've had a lot of experimentation it would be unfortunate if hackathons kind of go the other way and just become really rigid and okay this is exactly what a hackathon is and it does not change over time and versus okay this is this is this is kind of like the the the soft boundaries and and here are the essential elements um so you know Joseph I really like your commentary in the chat I just want to put poting attention to that you're writing that my events are different from yours you can say it yourself I mean your microphone I think we're working before but I would love to get Point H just looking for chat where do you find chat here ah you have to click on the little people Icon at the top left of the screen and then it's like open it's a link at the bottom top yeah so a lot of the the events that I do um are educational or Workforce Development so like we have a bit of money to support people to show up um because their employers are basically paying for this event to be put on for them so I mean we come in and we provide support for the um some of them have tutorials because we're teaching them how to use say a library in python or a couple of libraries helping them put together machine learning workflows or something like that and then they go off and they figure out how can they apply it to their own work to their own domains how to show something interesting out of it um so it's in some ways it's part training and then they have another three days or so to go wild and create um interesting things and so like I guess our budgets run between like 50 to 100,000 us um a lot of that is spent on say travel support to get people to show up um from across the us because it's a big place and hotels and everything and then we also rent out or we get support for like computers compute power that they may not have at their home institutions or wherever they are um so we're generally oversubscribed people are always trying to get in um but we people do drop out at the last moment but it's not on the level of like 50% um I know other people in the US that probably have events with similar attrition rates 50 75% but they still end up with hundreds of people that show up at the end of it um I'm thinking of like uh Major League hacking which is a um undergraduate colleague hacking event and they have prizes for that um and all of these questions that you all have been asking are things that we've been trying to answer in hack the hackathon which is now in the fourth year um I know it's a little bit late our schedule runs from 6: to 10 Central European Time um in a couple of weeks but again in a year um it'll be hosted in Europe because the organiz committees rotate between us and Europe so none of us get too burnt out putting on five or six events in a year so it'd be great to share and hear from more of you we usually have breakout sessions and this year we'll have like large chunks of time just for people to talk about things like do you do catering versus giving people gift cards to reat or whatever it is like what gets you better results um for engagement um or child care or is it possible to give out stiens for remote participants which we've done in the past to try to keep them engaged and not leaving I have a point this is I mean it's nice I'm a I'm a big fan of qualitative research but one could also if one had this pooled data set one could do multi-level analysis if one could just do event level a few event level variables like that and one could also get that kind of evidence on what works yeah and so yeah we um it's qualitative from hack the hackathon are is comprised solely of hackathon organizers and researchers so people are bringing together their data sets and surveys that they've done people are bringing together their events we're trying to make an open-source version of devpost um if if you haven't heard of devpost it's a private company that Aggregates and helps companies or other people put together hackathons uh but because some of them are using um Dev post for their own um thesises in research they're they've taken to scraping it and every time they get blocked they have to adjust their scrapers to um get new data out of it and they're not happy about being scraped so we're trying to develop and it's commercial based like it doesn't have the sort of events that I run or a lot of people that I know run um in sort of the academic scientific educational spaces so it has a nice subset but it's also a very biased subset of all the events that are going on so to sort of broaden the scope um um that would be very interesting um to see and do and so one of the things we're trying to do is to have everybody pull together their events beforehand so we can actually have a quantitative data set maybe to hack and compare

on and leave the last five minutes for somebody else to talk since it seems you have no I think I think Joseph this this is I I love the fact that you're basic inviting us to participate not only in international scientific conference I'm just pulling up your web page I've shared the in the chat as well so hack the hackathon for is coming up I'm going to be taking part virtually as much as I would love to join you and in your bettered country um although I hear San Diego is a real surface Paradise um even at this time of year um anyway um I'll be following virtually and I'll definitely uh make sure that in our next um hack or gex meeting some inputs and things are shared in the meantime already from the last year's event in Geneva you can find um links uh my to my blog post where I've tried to as much as possible share my learnings um and link to all the various resources that this community is is creating um and um I I absolutely you know thrilled to hear these efforts to open up depth post is kind of you know it's it's I mean it's it's created a mass awareness for Hons it's just like you know we wouldn't have it without Microsoft as we know it right as much as we love to talk about open source and Alternatives and so on right um anyway um I just want to remind everyone that we have this place um haor x. drip. CC where we'll share Deborah's presentation under hack integration if you have any comments or feedback please use the comment feature here just hit the blue button um or just write an email to me and uh I will I'll make sure to feature it in the next newsletter that's right we have a newsletter we're growing up to become a real proper little Community here um you should all be subscribed and please forward to other people who might want to hear about hackathons being organized and so on um here's honest question about participant Management in no shows um I think it's a really great question how do you register your uh people for your event what kind of platforms are available so I would really really love to see some see some suggestions here um if Christian welcome chrisan by the way I I sorry you had trouble joining but for example we' love really to hear how you uh tackle the Nosh show problem I know you've been working a lot on your platform um and uh two more things I'd just like to to mention is that kind of linked to hack integration and hack the hackathon um Joseph and I uh are administrating a um curated Literature list right Joseph do you want to say anything about this zoto project yeah uh so like started the zoto account um a while back and one of the projects I'm going to be pushing um of course anybody is welcome to work on a different project but one of the projects I'm pushing will be to um fill out um this group Library uh and especially because we have people I think we have something like 12 or 15 different disciplines right now that will be represented um at hack the hackathon uh I think last year we had 20 something disciplines but um especially for these one-off special issues that are in discipline specific journals about hackathons they've run in say um I come from geosciences so something like oceanography or atmospheric sciences or cryos Sciences or something they may run these oneoff special issues talking about hackathons and then they never talk about it again and because I sit at the intersection of a whole bunch of geoscience fields I see these special issues come again and again and again and everybody says they have the same problems but none of them are ever talking to each other in different fields and so this is sort of what the um the metah hackathon has been put together to do to connect these people um and so we have somebody we have an organizer that is one of the editors of a h of a life sciences hackathon Journal but they will accept hackathon articles from anywhere um and so one of the things I'm hoping to spend a couple of hours is to do a literature search literature survey and just load everything that I can find in there um I feel a little bad that oik has been doing all the uploading so far but um I do have a wait just just just just to clarify it's not just me so it's it's Deborah and also Marik Pia from University of Zurich the three of us have actually over the summer started this literature search and a lot a lot of the content is coming from Deborah which absolutely deserves recognition I was about to say we have a list too is she combined but I guess you've already you've already done that it's it's the public version of your list with with uh with with just a lot of the closed access articles removed because you know I'm not Aaron Schwarz yeah and also terot just doesn't let me do that even if I wanted to I can't actually attach PDFs on this public group for some reason anyway thank you very much Joseph we are out of time I do want to just mention one absolutely last thing this is kind of just for fun but I have set up a very special YouTube playlist which currently has 34 videos um kind of like the literature view it's uh an assortment of various um uh interesting videos like highlights from the sport hack days that you just heard Thomas talking about but also like videos from the major uh hacking League videos from hack the hackathon from past years where some recordings were made available um please contribute it's so the link here if you click on Source it's actually like if you have a YouTube account you can suggest videos we can make it a collaborative playlist and yeah at this point I would just say thank you very very much for coming to um to this hackathon organizers meeting um Christian you have joined late I would like to suggest that anyone who cannot stay who needs to feed kids or whatever please feel um absolutely unashamed to click disconnect um for those who can stay for a few minutes Christian if you would like to give us a quick demo of buzzle hack technology you can absolutely do this right now and maybe just say a few words about

yourself Christian says his microphone is broken damn okay so can we maybe do a demo next time yeah okay we got thumbs up from Thomas uh and Christian big smiles all around um it's very loud in here I'm in a uh a coffee in the middle of bur um where there's actually going to be a net political evening um maybe your Deborah I think you might swing by for a drink later um I'm sorry that we're uh not having a physical get together yet but I also like to pass the ball and if uh anyone Swiss based of us would like to host the next event you're absolutely welcome to do so Anna says she has to drop out let's keep in touch about the it was nice to meet you all and thanks again for the great input Debra which absolutely do on a second it was really great to see this this project um being launched for the next month and um yeah um Los hack is I think the next very next hackathon on my calendar that's happening is it this weekend or next weekend anyone keeping Touch of our uh friend

friends Los hack is like the the hack because large student run event at the uh University of loan epfl and it is coming up very shortly um November 30th sorry at the end of the month okay I was uh was I think the registrations were closing this weekend um and actually they would they are really Keen to host us just so you know that we already have had some discussions to have this meeting in loan um also the our friends at open Geneva uh Thomas mayot who was actually the organizer of hack the hackathon last year together with Joseph and team um is also very keen to share his progress they're doing hackathon all over the world doing also lots of research parallels hours so yeah I'm still trying to figure out a date that works we've been fighting influenza and Co all kinds of stuff this year again I don't know what's going on but uh in the meantime virtual is the way we play the game I have a question on drip down I could upload my presentation as the presentation for the hack integration challenge where should I I don't see where to put my questionnaire um or should I just email it to Anna you can I mean you can just put it just just paste the text into the pitch uh convert it to PDF um or send it to Anna I'm sure she would be very happy to help okay

we are the data

people all right yor is chiming out have a lovely evening everybody you guys have been great thanks very much for hanging out there are no more last questions I will go and get myself thanks for summoning

us always a pleasure Roland and I apologies for not being there to support you last weekend I do feel very bad about that but I I I was really happy to be on the sidelines and support you seeing you here today was great thanks yeah we'll catch you Christian working nice youring in the last second unbelievable so uh beer in Basel an open data be open hack on beer something like that in the next 12 huh

yes excellent idea

yeah are when are you in BS L by by chance any chance to be there

um I I was just thinking I had I just had a feeling that sorry no I I was just confused for a second I I don't know um my calendar is right now pretty much dedicated to the um to this like to the C Space Project I'll be in Sur next week to work with the University uh colleagues on that um Pon is actually the next event in my calendar and that is in Zur the following weekend um quick question Roland do you join the symphony meet up in Sy next

mid no um the the next few weeks are rather packed for me um the evenings okay because then I would I would be in surich next um Wednesday um but we can postpone it a bit further again yeah next next week would actually not be so bad for like Friday um then the week after it's it's the hack the hackathon virtual event plus it's dinon where I'm running the hack night and the workshop and helping with the whole event um so probably either either next Friday or something like Wednesday the 27th um Friday the 20 29th

maybe uh yeah on the on the evening of

27th I was planning to go for uh the 27th there is the open research data prize this year's award it's like the Noel Nobel of open data I'm a little bit Keen to to to to join that even though you know I think can watch remotely that we watch

together I mean it's the beers on location at event fabric B if you guys want to come you should maybe come just I think it's free just need to register starts at 5 there'll be a keynote from a professor from the Netherlands and stuff evening of 27th yeah u i mean we very much along the hackathon tradition to go where the beer is free rather than watch other people drink beer on TV um yeah 27th of November is fine for me and uh for my part we can come to burn if you want depends on Roland now yeah I'm just putting a placeholder in my calendar and uh I think it's uh I think I think we also can uh like provisor uh fix that appointment and then we will chat right but for me that looks good yeah I would I would really love to to to help the the kind of buzle scene and also to me to talk to Elijah again and talk to the possibility of continuing these ha or GS in some way like having a regular stom T um I was in De today and I and I talked to some people there who also really love the format maybe we can almost kind of Meet the middle in be or in ton um and um and at least hearing what to what Thomas said about um there's really like kind of an interest and the need and so many questions and just this desire for openness rather than competitiveness between the hackathon teams um there's just like I think there's like a really strong with make C and hack cich actually struggling you know that's that creates kind of a a recognition that it's not so easy you know and maybe it would be good to have a bit support venue right and I mean hack or gex idea I think we should maybe talk to um I was I recently heard a presentation from kristofh Medan um where they were quite Keen to support I think communities of our type maybe we could do an application for them to to to uh you know like kind of also maybe even Jour journalistically you know like to do like a little book project or something like that you know I don't know there's another idea spontaneous idea I had well semi spontaneous was like the the hackathon guidelines that open data CH publishes um they the people keep referring to them right but it's kind of like just a couple of us writing scratching them together having like a collaborative book effort to write a handbook of hackathon of Swiss hackathons could be also kind of like a way to bring our community around a Central Central

project yeah C CMS and uh other organizations like this that sounds really interesting to to to approach we haven't tried it but we've talked about it uh several times and uh with Joint Forces it's even better and pretty a good idea let let's let's let's join for by the way I mentioned this before you joined I still haven't published your video Roland so oh I'm still recording by the way probably under recording goodbye internet

---
END OF TRANSCRIPT