---
tags: Workshop
title: The future of support for scientific computing (RSE in Finland)
---

# The future of support for scientific computing (RSE in Finland)

:::warning

### Links and info

**When?**
~9-16

**Where?**
In-person: Room "Takka" in Dipoli, Otaniemi, Otakaari 24, 02150 Espoo
Remote: https://cscfi.zoom.us/j/66659795016 

**This page:** https://hackmd.io/@nordic-rse/fin_rse_meetup

:::

:::info
"Research software engineer" is a recent term to describe a certain type of support: close, hands-on, supporting projects more than answering questions. These roles exist in Finland, but we aren't very unified yet (unlike some countries). Let's meet, discuss what we have so far, and where we want to be. Expected outcomes:
- Professional network
- Better cross-organization support, help people move up and down the tiers of infrastructure better
- Better user support and recognition of our work to science

:::

## Detailed agenda

Moderation: Samantha

- Welcome and practicalities of the event:
- What we are trying to do?
- Agenda
- HackMD

- Introduction round (by voice and Hackmd)
:::info
- Name
- Affiliation
- Background
- "Specialization" - What topics do you feel comfortable with helping others?
- What would be your vision for RSE in Finland?
- What would you like to learn next?
:::

- **Richard**: Aalto, computational chemistry/physics, network science. Helps with HPC/clusters, softare in general, Python, conda, data, teaching, Sphinx, .... Vision: we know each other and work together more.
- **Jarno**: Aalto RSE, computational physics, stencil models (C, C++, optimization). Software help for researchers, packaging, publishing, Python, conda... Vision: Knowing who to ask about a given topic.
- **Thomas**: Aalto RSE (AaltoSciComp), bioinformatics/computational biology, metabolic modelling (COBRA), linear programming, Software support (Conda), Software development (Java, javascript, matlab, webdev, python), HPC general support. Vision: Better "worktime"-sharing between institutions (get the best specialist for a topic without having to go through the whole financing route)
- **Simo**: Aalto, background in computational physics. HPC setups, AI & deep learning development and software installation/development. HPC specialist in Aalto, but work closely with RSEs and RSE projects. Vision: transfer of information and best practices.
- **Enrico Glerean**: Aalto (50% ScienceIT, 50% REsearchServices), neuroscience + medical scieces background. I help people with handling personal data, ethics review, reproducibility, open science (registered reports), data management, anonymisation, secure computing, medical images, statistics. I help coordinating the teaching activities at Aalto Sci Comp. Also: co-founder of Finnish Reproducibility Network. Goal: opening personal data. Participating in national working group by AvoinTiede (national policy on open methods, professionalization of RDM experts)
- **Teemu**: Aalto RSE: data science, before Aalto digital social sciences and humanities, current projects: Python API documentation, Python packaging, serving an AI model at CSC HPC instance. Vision: low threshold collab between RSEs in different institutions.
- **Mats**: CSC, machine learning specialist - i.e. maintaining ML software on CSC's clusters Puhti and Mahti (and a bit on LUMI), helping with various ML related projects, GPUs, Python etc, used to be researcher at Aalto and UoH
- **Samantha**: CSC (80% + 20% PhD (Aalto + Finnish Geospatial Research Institute)), Geoinformatics specialist, CodeRefinery and Nordic-RSE, user support with geoinformatics stuff for supercomputer, cloud: training, docs and examples writing, Python, Earth Observation/ Remote sensing.
- **Rasmus**: CSC, computational chemistry specialist, user support and outreach, software environment maintenance, documentation, training, project coordination. Vision: networking and training collaboration
- **Katri**: CSC, manager of Tools for dataintensive sciences. Vision: We have applied for Academy of Finland FIRI funding for FCCI (Finnish Computing Competence Infrastructure). If we get funding it is a 3-year-project starting in January 2024 with 9PM's/year for RSE coordination for CSC. The project has almost all universities in Finland involved and they have all identified need for RSE coordination; some have more internal funding, some less, and there is a need for coordination so that even those who don't have strong RSE support at their location could have help from other universities or CSC when needed.
- **Heli**: CSC, data scientist, maintenance of supercomputer R environment, R user support, teaching R courses, also little bit of development of Chipster. Long research background in microbiology and microbiome analysis.
- **Aurélie**: CSC, RSE, acting as interface between researchers developing some models for digital twinning and the computational infrastructure. Background in experimental physics and data analysis. Also SW development for experimental physicist and other research scientists, e.g. interfaces to devices, sensors, GUI programming, data analysis and visualisation software, environment and packaging, documentation...
- **Cristian**: CSC, HPC support. Background in physics. I am interested in staying in touch with University to be able to assist as best as possible with their research.
- **Sara**: University of Helsinki. Background in Geoinformatics. I am a researcher and remote sensing data scientist. I would like to know about RSE teams and their actitivities in Finland.
- **Matias**: CSC, Events and training support, originally computational chemistry. Ask me about creating courses and material, audio and video recording and editing. I would like to learn quantum algorithms

- What is RSE? (Richard + all)
- Base material: https://nordic-rse.org/blog/what-is-r-s-e/
- Further discussion: how does RSE overlap or differ with other job titles.
- My thought: it's more a spirit than a job. Anyone can be.
- Intro to
- [Aalto RSE](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/143uNNQtL_ktu4xOuvrPEV5U3byV-jsB3MjVHDRwbWQQ/edit#slide=id.p) (Richard)
- [RSE activities at CSC](https://siili.rahtiapp.fi/RSEatCSC) (Samantha)
- [Nordic RSE and beyond](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1PYYNupulYxKrv5Owr8H1ZlQpdU_5z8fI72qXiLt5a2I) (Jarno)
- [CodeRefinery](https://cicero.xyz/v3/remark/0.14.0/github.com/coderefinery/presentations/main/2023_fin_rse.md/#1) (Samantha)
- ... your group?
- Richard Darst: a vision of community-based RSE support.
- How should we work together as a RSE community to support our customers? How will our communities interact?
- scaling garage concept
- people in garage come from community they are supporting
- people know each other
- low barrier
- RSE community benefit: garages know each other, connect people to the correct garage session
- > FCCI could help with this
- support staff working together
- community sizes
- UH more fragmented
- Aalto more central
- many users are already forwarded to LUMI support
- RSE as layer between users and other support sessions
- inverse broken telephone
- referral system can both be negeative and positive
- voluntary participation
- some want to he there, some prefer "on call"
- dealing with a problem vs sense of community
- user connection, lowering barrier
- emotional support, "you are not alone"
- Metaphor for surgeon removing appendix: specilist for X vs doctors who look holistically.
- garage: preventative care, catching users before they might do something stupid
- getting second opinion is often important

- "Cool things and problems": Introduction to personal expertise and current work
- What problem have you solved lately?
- What kinds of questions do you ask other experts?

Other topics to discuss:
- networking channel, how to bring people together?
- "RSE garage"
- more official than coffee break
- officially as part of FCCI (if funding goes through)
-
- promoting RSE tools within the community
- RSE(/HPC) training portfolio
- promoting science
- Best way of teaching "minimal amount of best software engineering/programming practices"

## What is RSE?

> *A Research Software Engineer (RSE) is a professional who applies their knowledge of both software development and research methodologies to support and advance scientific research. The RSE role arose in response to the growing demand for software development skills in research settings, where traditional researchers might not have the necessary expertise.* [ChatGPT 4]
- Removing individual parts of RSE and see what's left:
- Software Engineer:
- Expert in generating a software framework, setting up the environment etc, but conflicts a lot with scientific development process.
- Research could need more Software Engineering, code too chaotic.
- Research Engineer:
- too broad, (lab engineers? more technical side)
- Research Software (Person):
- Well... that's not a job
- Lacks structural integrety

How many of us have RSE in official title?
- Teemu (Aalto RSE)
- Thomas (Aalto RSE)
- Jarno (Aalto RSE)
- Aurélie (CSC)

Some notes from discussions:
* cultural thing researcher vs software dev, "timetables don't mean anything"
* normal software dev: requirements definition -> write code
* research: requirements change all the time; software has to be modifyiable, in the end also efficient
* wish to have more software engineering for researchers, often messy, unefficient
* research software: often built upon, what if base is broken? needs to be reproducible, often does not get long-term support
* small amount of good software engineering practices can make a huge difference
* It is not just about the software, which is important to emphasize when explainin the term RSE
* RSE: ideas + implementations
* Software Research Engineer
* research software may be missing structural/scientific integrity
* proper use of tools also around coding
* Engineers have some negative connotations in some places/cultures
* Research engineer used in Aalto
* RSE: giving research structural integrity
* also compassion to just do some patching up instead of suggestion to rewrite everything
* having the goal in mind
* "We're the friends of the researchers"
* Low barrier by also being honest about not knowing everything
* "more than typical IT", but still related
* We try to minimize the "not fun to fix" code crashes
* Translating between sysadmin and user/researcher
* "ATK-tukihenkilö" (automatic information processing support)
* frontline research collaborator

## Introductions: Aalto RSE
- Link above, says most of the things (or they are in the introductions)
-

## Introductions: CSC
- Link above
- Many RSE-type things spread around different units
- Discussions about front line support, service desk
- Internal trainings in CSC:
- BOF sessions sometimes where people present things
- Basic HPC course for new employees
- Can more of these internal trainings at our site be avaliable to others?
- FCCI would give 9 PM/year for RSEs, mainly for coordination (not just doing)
- module usage tracking: sharing technical implementation
- GPU usage tracking - sharing experiences with Aalto

## Nordic-RSE
- Link above
- UK "Society of Research Software Engineers" is a professional association (not only a registered association)
- Why join nordic-rse? Advocate for our positions?
- though many of us are working on behalf of our employers now
- Discussion of reasons to join, purpose, etc.

## CodeRefinery
- Link above
-

## A vision of community-based RSE support

- 

## General notes and comments

**Training**
- MJ: I am interested in making collaboration on training material easier. I'd like to hear opinions on tools and ways of working that might fit all
- CodeRefinery: sphinx
- CSC: many, one of them pandoc md->html, CSC Notebooks (Jupyter/ R), Jupyter for courses (Puhti), powerpoint/pdf, google slides
- IQM Academy, [Xanadu codebook](https://codebook.xanadu.ai)
- needs to serve both textbased and WYSIWYG "type of people", training and easy to use examples
- Jupyter Lite, thebe (also sphinx-thebe): https://thebe.readthedocs.io/en/stable/index.html
- https://carpentries.github.io/workbench/
- compromise would be: use markdown based,everyone own "building engine"
- MJ: An overall abstract high-level goal would be to have a EU-wide HPC/RSE training portfolio where students can find the training they need and an organisation who offers that.
- There are some projects who are doing related things:
- [Universe HPC](http://www.universe-hpc.ac.uk/)
- RSE skills and learning pathways defined
- [HPC certification forum](https://hpc-certification.org/)
- RSE skills defined, hosted in git for review
- [Certification in HPC training](https://digital-skills-jobs.europa.eu/en/opportunities/training/eumaster4hpc-eu-master-high-performance-computing)
- Is there something that we could/wanted to do?
- ST: RD has been collecting some useful skills here: https://handsonscicomp.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
- We've tried to fill some of those parts with our courses.

:::spoiler Added links to the material list above
Some examples of used training materials:
- CodeRefinery: [GitHub, Sphinx](https://coderefinery.org/lessons/from-coderefinery/) (pick any)
- CSC: [pandoc md->html](https://a3s.fi/CSC_training/00_account_and_project.html#/csc-accounts-and-projects), ([pandoc-tool](https://github.com/csc-training/slidefactory )), [md -> GitHub pages](https://csc-training.github.io/csc-env-eff/hands-on/connecting/credentials.html), [CSC Notebooks (Jupyter/ R)](https://notebooks.rahtiapp.fi/welcome), [Jupyter for courses (Puhti)](https://docs.csc.fi/computing/webinterface/jupyter-for-courses/), powerpoint/pdf, [google slides](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1Jc3p3YWgS4eC4fqi47KmGTD0re3vhf6deovHtUR2fdE/edit#slide=id.g4df2e38304_1_298)
- AaltoSciComp: [GitHub / ReadTheDocs](https://handsonscicomp.readthedocs.io/en/latest/)
- Carpentries: https://carpentries.github.io/workbench/
- IQM Academy: [a custom made platform](https://iqm-academy.vercel.app/curriculum/index.html)
- Material that incl. interactive code blocks: [Xanadu codebook](https://codebook.xanadu.ai), [thebe](https://thebe.readthedocs.io/en/stable/index.html)
- Jupyter Lite
:::

**Someone asked about how Aalto is funded:**
- Aalto funding: 61% government, 13% AKA, 7% EU, 4% Business Finland, 4% Corporate, Other (rest)

## What would be your vision for RSEs in Finland?
- RD: better connectiongs among organizations (helping each other, knowing each other, officially sharing projects)
- SW: Creating a network, where people are comfortable sharing challenges/information. Including research institutes. Reach out to also outside of our usual bubble.
- ST: Who to contact to kickstart a project with expertise. "I know someone who knows someone..."
- TP: Simpler way of exchanging worktime.
- JR: Network of RSEs from different organizations, expertize sharing.
- TR: Low barrier collaboration, support (like within our group).

## Summary / goals for future / blog post points

What we want in the future?
- From our management
- Cost object with funding for future RSE development activities (CSC)
- Enable cross-organization RSE collaboration, that allows sharing work-time
- From other RSEs
- Occational consultations on a technology you happen to know
- cross-organization garage pings
- Consider joining CodeRefinery chat and talk about cool stuff you do / ask questions to other RSEs
- #nordic-rse (about the org and RSE life), #TIL (cool stuff you do/build), #help (asking for help/answering), #general (misc), #finland, streams
- Submit ideas to and attend the Nordic-RSE seminar series (self-development)
- Low barrier to sending messages
- From ourselves
- Update Nordic-RSE page to make it clear why / what activities someone should join (e.g. seminar series, chat).
- Talk to others about how cool this meeting was
- Work on spreading the info from our chats a bit more
- Local FI meetup around the time of the unconference

## How can we reach other RSEs that have not joined today?
* FCCI will help (if it gets funded), what can we do if not?
*

## Blogpost about the event (WIP)

The first Finnish RSE meetup was held on 30. May 2023 at Dipoli, Otaniemi. About 15 RSEs and RSE interested people joined in person and online.

We started with an introduction round, where everyone could tell about their background and vision for RSE in Finland. The consensus for the future of RSE in Finland was to build a community for experience exchange and collaboration, and the meetup was a great first step into that direction.

We then tried to define what is an RSE by discussing what it would mean to leave out either of the letters in the term RSE.

[Aalto RSE group](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/143uNNQtL_ktu4xOuvrPEV5U3byV-jsB3MjVHDRwbWQQ/edit#slide=id.p) and [RSE activities at CSC](https://siili.rahtiapp.fi/RSEatCSC) were introduced, as well as the activities of [Nordic-RSE](https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1PYYNupulYxKrv5Owr8H1ZlQpdU_5z8fI72qXiLt5a2I) and the [CodeRefinery project](https://cicero.xyz/v3/remark/0.14.0/github.com/coderefinery/presentations/main/2023_fin_rse.md/#1). Presentation material can be found behind the links at each name.

The vision of a community based RSE support was introduced and discussed. Many places/services nowadays have their own virtual office hours / garage session / user support coffee breaks. How would a RSE garage look like, would it be useful and how could it be realized?

You can find the full event notes here: https://hackmd.io/@nordic-rse/fin_rse_meetup

We concluded the day by summarizing our goals and needs for the future of RSE in Finland:

What would we need from management levels?

* Cost object with funding for future RSE development activities
* Enable cross-organization RSE collaboration, that allows sharing work-time

What could RSE-RSE collaboration and support look like?

* Occasional consultations on a technology you happen to know
* Cross-organization garage pings
* Consider joining CodeRefinery chat and talk about cool stuff you do / ask questions to other RSEs
* #nordic-rse (about the org and RSE life), #TIL (cool stuff you do/build), #help (asking for help/answering), #general (misc), #finland, streams
* Submit ideas to and attend the Nordic-RSE seminar series (self-development)
* Low barrier to sending messages

Things that we can do ourselves:

* Update Nordic-RSE page to make it clear why / what activities someone should join (e.g. seminar series, chat).
* Talk to others about how cool this meeting was
* Work on spreading the info from our chats a bit more (dedicated channels in internal chats)
* Local FI meetup around the time of the Nordic-RSE unconference in October '23 (more info to follow)

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