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title: 鳴個喇叭緬甸街 Podcast｜EP 56 - 反抗進行式！緬甸，最後一搏 ft. 緬甸人權家 懷恩寧 Wai Hnin
tags: [podcast]

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title: 鳴個喇叭緬甸街 Podcast｜EP 56 - 反抗進行式！緬甸，最後一搏 ft. 緬甸人權家 懷恩寧 Wai Hnin
tags: podcast
---
### ｜鳴個喇叭緬甸街 Podcast |

# EP 56 - 反抗進行式！緬甸，最後一搏 ft. 緬甸人權家 懷恩寧 Wai Hnin (中英逐字稿)

今天這集 Podcast 是緬甸政變二週年系列 Podcast 的最後一集。做政變主題以來，我們曾經訪問過記者、緬甸運動參與者、學生、NGO 工作者，大多都是從在台灣的緬甸移民或社群關注者的角度，去了解緬甸政變的發展。

不過，今天這集的來賓非常特別、也是一位非常重量級的人物，他是 Wai Hnin Pwint Thon（中譯「懷恩寧」），是一位重要的緬甸人權倡議者。目前任職在 Burma Campaign UK，十多年來，她一直積極往返歐美與亞洲倡議緬甸人權和民主發展。 

會開始從事人權倡議工作，跟懷恩寧的父親有很大的關聯。她的父親 Ko Mya Aye 是緬甸 88 世代學生民主運動的領導人之一，是一位著名的人權運動家。在懷恩寧的童年生活，父親是缺席的，在他記憶之中，第一次見到父親是在仰光的監獄會客室，高大老舊的建築、周圍還有著武裝嚴密的軍警。

在這樣的家庭成長，並沒有阻卻懷恩寧對於民主與人權的追求。2007 年因為番紅花運動，家人決定送懷恩寧到英國讀書，成為他從事人權工作的開端。同樣身為政治犯的家屬，懷恩寧投入大量時間為緬甸政治犯的權益奔走，讓國際社會能關注他們的案件，並對緬甸壓迫性的法律進行了深入研究。

從 8888 運動到緬甸春季革命，或是更準確的說，從他出生在這個家開始，對懷恩寧來說，反抗一直都是進行式。

:::warning
🎤 關鍵字搜尋「緬甸街」，你可以在六個音樂平台找到《鳴個喇叭！緬甸街》Apple/ Spotify/ Google/SoundOn/ Soundcloud/ KKBOX

🚩 收聽平台：https//linktr.ee/mpculture
:::
:::info
🚩 本集節目是與 #慢工文化 的特別合作，慢工 2/1 正式發行新書《緬甸，最後一搏》，邀請大家加入我們，成為一起聲援緬甸的力量 💪
✊ 《緬甸，最後一搏》新書官網：www.sloworkpublishing.com/myanmar_the_last_stand/
:::

## 中英逐字稿
> 本集節目逐字稿使用 ai 聽打與翻譯，翻譯內容不完全精準，若有翻譯不正確或語句不通順之處，歡迎大家一同共筆修改。



<font color=orange> 鳴個喇叭緬甸街 0:00 </font>
大家好。歡迎回到「鳴個喇叭！緬甸街」Podcast。我是主持人 Analeigh。今天是非常特別的一集，這是我們第一次用英文錄節目。這集我們特別與慢工出版合作。最近慢工剛剛出版了一本紀實漫畫《緬甸，最後一搏》，講述了2021年2月發生的緬甸春季革命。

今年 2 月是緬甸政變的兩週年。今天我們特別邀請到現在人在日內瓦跟我們連線的來賓加入，她是來自緬甸的人權倡議者，我們非常幸運在她 2022 年來台北參加奧斯陸論壇時認識她。就讓我們歡迎今天的特別來賓「懷恩寧」(Wai Hnin)

Hello everyone. Welcome back to 'Mingalarpar Little Myanmar' podcast. I'm your host Analeigh. Today, it's a very special episode. And it's also the first time that we record this podcast in English. This episode is specially collaborated with slow work publishing. So recently, 'Slow work' just published a graphic documentary called Burma and final battle, which is about the Myanmar spring revolution that took place in February in 2021. So the upcoming February also marked the second year anniversary of the Myanmar military coupe. So today we have a special guest friend join us from Geneva, she said Burmese pro- democracy activist, and we were very lucky enough to meet her earlier during her trip for the Oslo forum in Taipei in 2022. So So let's welcome 'Wai Hnin'. Hello, Wai Hnin, and can you introduce yourself a little bit to our Taiwanese audience?

Wai Hnin 1:27  
你好，非常感謝你邀請我。我也很高興來到這裡。我的名字是Wai Hnin。我是一名來自緬甸的人權活動家。但現在，我目前住在日內瓦。所以我從事緬甸人權問題的工作已經超過15年了。所以非常感謝你們邀請我。

Hello, thank you so much for having me. And it's my pleasure to be here. My name is Wai Hnin. And I am a human rights activist from Burma. But now I'm currently living in exile in Geneva. So I've been working on human rights issues on Burma for over 15 years now. So thank you so much for having me.

鳴個喇叭緬甸街 1:49  
這是我們的榮幸。因此，當這一集播出時，將是緬甸政變兩週年。我很好奇現在緬甸人民的日常生活是怎樣？

It's our pleasure. So by the time when this episode will be aired, it will be around the second year anniversary of the attempted coup in Myanmar. So I wonder, what is it like now for the people in in Myanmar in everyday life?

Wai Hnin 2:03  
簡單的回答是情況非常、非常糟糕。現在當我遇到世界各地的人時，他們認為緬甸現在處於軍事獨裁統治之下，同樣，我們現在生活在軍事獨裁統治之下。這就是為什麼我們在受苦。這就是為什麼情況非常糟糕。

但實際上，雖然已經過去了兩年，軍方仍然沒能鞏固權力。人們一直在以許多方式進行抵抗。緬甸正在經歷巨大的人道主義危機。在緬甸國內很多對政治不感興趣的人，或者對參加這場革命不感興趣的人，說：「哦，政治不適合我們。我們只想專注於我們的家庭，我們只想專注於我們的日常生活」。但是，這次政變這些侵犯人權的行為也會影響到他們。因為即使你沒有參與政治，即使你沒有因為支持軍事政變而鋃鐺入獄，但是因為政變的，出現了經濟危機，出現了通貨膨脹。因此，要完全說政治與我無關幾乎是不可能呢。政變、侵犯人權和軍事腐敗影響到我們所有在緬甸的人。因此，自2021年2月以來，國內的情況一直非常非常糟糕。

Well, short answer is the situation is very, very bad. So now when I meet people around the world, they think that Burma is now under a military dictatorship, again, we are now living under a military dictatorship. And that's why we are suffering. That's why situation is very bad. But in reality, although it's been nearly two years, the military still hasn't been able to consolidate power. People have been resisting in many ways. And of course, that's why we now have a huge human rights crisis in our country. But also we have huge humanitarian crisis in Burma as well. And a lot of people inside Burma who are not interested in politics, or who are not interested to take part in this revolution, say,' oh, politics is not for us. We just want to focus on our family, we just want to focus on our day to day life'. But this, you know, this military, human rights violation affect them as well. Because even though you're not involved in politics, even though you are not ended up in jail for standing up for the military coup, there is the economic crisis, because of the military, there is a inflation and you know, so many crisis happening for normal people. So you can't just, you know, sit out and say, politics is not for us, because this military, human rights violation and this military corruption affect all of us inside the country in Burma. So situation inside the country has been really, really bad since February 2021.

鳴個喇叭緬甸街 3:41  
我大概能夠理解緬甸人民的掙扎，因為生活還要繼續，仍然要養活你的家人，還是要考量到要怎麼維繫生活的經濟來源。不過，正如你所說，像人權和政治問題，它們影響著我們的日常生活。它是我們社會的一部分。所以我想這是我們無法逃避的事情。因此，我認為在過去兩年中，我們已經看到了緬甸人民對軍隊的抵抗。緬甸人民以各種方式進行和平抗議，而現在人們仍然在戰鬥和抵抗。那麼你能告訴我們目前人們正在採取什麼行動嗎？

Yeah, I think I kind of understand what the Burmese people are struggling because life goes on. And you still have to feed your family. And so I think that's reasonable that they will take, like economic issue into the daily lives concern. So but as you said, like human rights, and politics issues, they affect our everyday life. It's part of our society. So I think that's something that we cannot escape from it. So and I think we've seen the resistance of Burmese people against the military over the past two years. And there was various way of peaceful protests by Burmese people, and now people are still fighting and resistance. So can you tell us what actions people are taking at the moment?

Wai Hnin 4:31  
在我剛才的回答中，我有提到能從這場革命中抽身而出，這些人大多數是相當中產階級或富有的人，他們可以與軍隊建立關係，在這個困難時期為自己找到出路。

在抵抗方面，我們有看到了許多形式。例如公民不服從運動，已經在緬甸持續了近兩年。這些人是教師、護士、醫生和許多年輕的專業人士，他們決定不回去工作，特別當軍隊正試圖控制國家，而這是他們和平抵抗的方式。

直至今日，有上千上萬人參加公民不服從運動，有很多人他們已經近兩年沒有收入，但是他們仍然在抵抗，因為他們相信，這必須是我們擺脫軍方的最後鬥爭。當然，我們也看到，在革命初期有大規模的抗議，超過萬人在街上游行。但現在已經沒有了，因為軍隊的鎮壓、向平民的頭部開槍，殺死街上的和平抗議者。

儘管我們不再看到大規模的抗議活動發生，但可以看到許多很有創意的抗議活動。像是前陣子我們看到年輕人穿著傳統的longyi，他們在隆基裡面寫上「結束軍事政變」或者「擺脫軍方」的標語放在公共空間。或是，許多年輕人決定拿起武器，組成人民保衛部隊，因為他們看到自己的朋友在和平抗議中被槍擊中頭部。他們看到他們的朋友在拘留中心被折磨和殺害。所以他們決定，如果我們想擺脫軍隊，我們需要拿起武器。因此，有一個非暴力運動，也有武裝抵抗運動，共同抵制緬甸的軍隊。甚至在今天也在發生，儘管我們不再在新聞中看到它。

In my previous answer, I talked about people's, you know, sipping out of this revolution, and most of these people are quite middle class or wealthy people who found that they can make connection with the military and enrich themselves during this difficult times. 

And in terms of resistance, we have seen so many forms. So just look at a civil disobedience movement, and it's been going on for nearly two years. These are teachers, nurses, doctors, and many young professionals who decided that they're not going to go back to work, especially the military is trying to take control of the country. And this is their peaceful way of resisting. 

And so we have, you know, 1000s of people taking part in civil disobedience movement. And they still, I mean, they haven't been paid for nearly two years, they have no income. But still, I mean, they have no income, they have no way of feeding their families, but still their resistance because they believe that this has to be our last struggle to get rid of this military. And also, of course, we saw in the beginning of the revolution, we saw mass protests, we saw people marching on streets, 1000s of people, but now it doesn't happen anymore. Because of the military crackdown. We saw people military's been killing people and shooting people in the head, killing them, peaceful protesters on the street. 

So although we don't see mass protests happening anymore, we saw creative style of protests just yesterday. Well, this podcast is being done in November. So, you know, just yesterday, we saw young people wearing longyi traditional sarong, or whatever you call it. So they had letters hidden in inside of the longyi and in public, they tried to rearrange their longyi and inside the longyi, it shows like, 'Done with the military coup' or, you know, 'Get rid of the military'. So there are so many creative style of protests are happening inside the country. And of course, many young people have decided to take up arms forming people defense forces, because they saw their friends being shot in the head during the peaceful protests. They saw their friends being torture and kill in detention center. So they decided that okay, we need to take up arms if we want to get rid of the military. So there is a non-violent movement, also armed resistance movement coming together to resist the military in Burma. And it's happening even today, although we don't see it on the news anymore.

鳴個喇叭緬甸街 7:19  
是的，沒錯。就像你提到的，很多人甚至失去了他們的家。他們不得不逃離他們的國家到其他地方。你在奧斯陸論壇上提到，有超過數百萬的緬甸人不得不逃離這個國家到附近的國家，如泰國或其他東南亞國家。所以我想知道，現在這個國家發生了什麼可怕的情況，特別是對於那些不得不逃離這個國家的人。

Yeah, exactly. Like, as you mentioned, that lots of people they even lose their home. And they have to fled their country to other places. You've mentioned in the Oslo forum, there were over a millions of Burmese people who have to flee the country to nearby countries like Thailand or other Southeast Asian countries. So I wonder what are the dire conditions are now happening in the country, especially for those people who have to fled the country.

Wai Hnin 7:52  
在奧斯陸論壇上，我提到少數民族地區的100多萬居民，他們不得不因為軍隊的空襲而逃離家園，軍方每天都在對少數民族地區的平民區進行空襲。現在有超過一百萬人生活在叢林中，沒有食物、住所或藥物，因為他們不得不逃離家園，在空襲中生存。

同時，我們有上千人正在離開這個國家，嘗試去尋找安全的地方，因為如果你參與公民抗命運動，你很可能會被關進監獄。因此，如果你不想進監獄，你必須逃離。因此，除了去民族武裝控制區尋找庇護所，要么最終去邊境上的類型，或者其他國家，當然，如果你有護照，你也可以離開這個國家。

我們也有很多前政治犯或被通緝的人，為了他們的安全也逃離這個國家，這樣他們就可以在外面的某個地方繼續他們的活動，與當地人合作。很多這樣的事情正在發生。當然，在政變發生的同時，很多外國學生決定進行抗議，他們會到緬甸大使館外抗議，並要求釋放昂山素季和政治犯。這些人很容易成為緬甸大使館的目標以及緬甸軍隊的目標，讓他們害怕回家。

因此，問題是國外公部門，包括英國和其他國家，他們沒辦法給這些學生一個臨時身份，這些學生並不是想申請難民身份，因為他們不想放棄自己的國籍，他們想回家，他們想回去和家人在一起。他們所要求的是給我們一個臨時保護性身份。這樣我們就可以繼續安全地待在這裡，繼續幫助我們在國內的人。

但即便是很多民主國家也未能向這些學生提供這些身份。因此，現在我們有很多緬甸學生生活在混亂中，不知道他們的未來在哪裡，也不知道他們的身份會是什麼。因此，這也是非常可悲的。

So in the Oslo forum, when I mentioned over 1 million those ethnic nationalities in ethnic areas, they had to flee from their homes because of the military airstrikes. So military has been conducting airstrikes every day, in civilian areas in ethnic areas. Over a million people now living in jungle without food, shelter, or medication, because they had to flee from their home to survive their airstrikes. At the same time, we have 1000s of people leaving the country to find safety and sanctuary because so for example, if you are involved in civil disobedience movement, you will end up in prison. So if you can't, if you don't want to end up in prison, you have to flee. So you either go to ethnic armed control area to find sanctuary, or you end up going to type on the border, or other countries, of course, if you have the passport, and if you have the mean and you will get out of the country. So also we have a lot of former political prisoners or people on wanted list, fleeing the country for their safety as well, so that they can continue their activities somewhere outside and collaborating with people inside the ground. So we have a lot of that happening. And of course, at the same time when the coup happened, a lot of students in foreign countries decided to protest, they would go outside Burmese embassy, and they would protest and they will call for the release of 'Aung sun su kyi' and political prisoners. So those people become target of the Burmese embassy, and therefore the Burmese military as well. So they are afraid to go home. So the problem is that foreign countries, including the UK, and other countries, they don't give these students a temporary status, because these students don't necessarily want to apply for refugee status because they don't want to give up their nationality, they want to go back home and they want to go back to be with their family. All they're asking is give us a temporary protective status. So we can continue staying here in safety and continue helping our people in the country. But foreign countries, even democratic countries fail to provide those status to these students. So now we have a lot of, you know, students in international country, living in limbo, not knowing where their future is, and not knowing what their status is going to be. So it's really sad as well.

鳴個喇叭緬甸街 10:35  
是的，的確，看到這麼多人想回到他們的家，回到他們的家鄉，但他們卻不能這樣做，這是非常悲哀的。

我想這也跟你本身的狀況很像，因為你的父親'Mya Aye'也是生活在緬甸的80年代一代學生的領袖之一。他參加了幾個歷史性的民主運動，如1980年的8888運動、2007年的saffron革命，還有2021年以來的春季革命。而且他曾多次被軍方拘留，被判處60多年的監禁。鑑於這樣的家庭背景，我想知道你是如何在緬甸度過你的童年的，因為你也不得不在2007年逃離這個國家到英國。所以我想知道你在緬甸的童年是怎樣度過的？

Yeah, indeed, it's very sad to see so many people who like to go back to their home to their homeland, but they are unable to do it. I think that speaks for you as well, because your father, 'Mya Ai' is also one of the leaders of the 80s generation students live in Burma. And he has participated in several historical democratic movements like the 8888 movement in 1980, and saffron revolutions in 2007. And also the spring revolution since 2021. And he's been detained by the military several times and sentenced to over 60 years in prison. So given such family background, I wonder how do you spend your childhood in Burma because you also have to flee the country to UK in 2007. So I wonder how is it like for you to spent your childhood in Burma?

Wai Hnin 11:35  
當我還是個孩子的時候，我父親在我五個月大的時候就被逮捕了。我的祖父母都認為，在某個年齡之前，我去看我爸爸在監獄裡是不合適的。在我成長過程中，我一直認為我沒有父親。不過我媽媽會一直給我看一個穿著畢業禮服的人的照片，告訴我那是我的父親，但沒有任何联系。但我總是質疑為什麼我爸爸不和我一起住，為什麼他不在家。

但我媽媽非常好，他會跟我解釋他為什麼要住在外面，為什麼我們的家庭狀況是這樣的。所以我在四歲的時候遇到了我爸爸，那是在仰光監獄裡。當我的祖父母說我要去見我的父親時，我以為我要去一個公園或電影院或其他地方。所以當我到達監獄裡面時，它是一個大的、醜陋的、令人印象深刻的殖民主義風格建築，周邊有很多帶槍的警衛和警察。

所以我以為，我父親是一個非常富有的人。不過當我後來我到了現場，發現情況完全不同。他戴著手銬，而且他的腳上也有一條鍊子，我才意識到他是這裡的囚犯。

我真的很佩服我的父母，特別是我的媽媽，因為他們向我解釋了為什麼我爸爸要犧牲一切，為什麼他必須參與政治。因為我們所有的這些談話，在我年輕的時候，它真的讓我對政治感興趣，而不是對人權的政治感興趣。我會質疑為什麼其他家庭可以過正常的生活，或者為什麼其他人非常貧窮。我開始看到我們社會中的不平等。我在很小的時候就開始看到我們社會中侵犯人權的裂痕。當然，我和我父親的朋友成為朋友，他們都是前政治犯，是非常了不起的人權和民主活動家。所以我從小就知道，我長大後想成為這些人中的一員。當然，在2007年，我來到了英國，因為我無法在緬甸繼續學習。因為我父親的原因，我不能上大學。

when I was a while my dad was arrested when I was five months old. So I and also my grandparents thought it was not appropriate for me to go and see my dad in prison until a certain age. So I grew up looking at my cousin's family, I grew up thinking I didn't have any father. You know, I mean, my mom kept showing me a picture of a man in his graduation gown and told me it was my father, but there was no connection. But I always questioned why my dad did not live with me and why, you know, he wouldn't be home. But my mom was very good and explaining why he had to live away and what you know, why our family situation is the way it was. So I met my dad when I was four years old, and it was in the prison in Yangon or Rangoon. So when my grandparents said I was going to meet my father, for the first time, I thought I was going to, you know, to a park or to a cinema or something. So when I arrived inside prison, it was a big, ugly, impressive building, colonial style. So I thought, and then there were so many guards with guns and police. So I thought, what my father was a very wealthy man. So and then I arrived, and I realized the situation was completely different. Because I saw, you know, there was a man that I realized from a photo he was wearing, hand cuffs, and, and he was, he had a chain on his feet as well. So I realized that he was actually a prisoner in this big, ugly compound. But when I when he was released, I mean, I really admire my parents, particularly my mom, because they really explained to me why my dad is sacrificing everything and why he has to get involved in politics. And because of all these conversation we had, when I was young, it really intrigued me about my interest in politics and not politics in human rights. You know, I would question why other families has to live a normal life or why other people are very poor. And you know, so I started to see the inequality in our society. And I started to see the cracks of human rights violations in our society from a young age. And of course, I became friends with my dad's friends who are all former political prisoners, and very amazing human rights and democracy activists. So I learned that from a young age that I wanted to be one of those people when I grew up. And of course, in 2007, I came to the UK because I couldn't continue my study in Burma. Because of my dad, I couldn't go to university. 

鳴個喇叭緬甸街
是因為你被列入了黑名單嗎？

So was it like you were black listed?

Wai Hnin
我原本希望成為一名老師，但因為我的父親當時是一名前政治犯，他在緬甸有犯罪記錄，所以他們的孩子不能去參加大多數的大學課程，也不能成為我國家的公務員。這不僅僅是我的問題，這對每個人來說，無論是孩子還是前政治犯。所以，

但我很幸運，我的祖父母對說你不然你要不要去英國學習六個月，而且，他們還為我在英國議會找到了一份實習工作。當我到了英國，我父親又再次因為領導另一次和平抗議活動而被捕。所以我有兩個選擇，一個是回家參加抗議活動並被逮捕。二是在英國讀書。考量到當時的情況，當時大家一直建議選擇第二個選項。我後來留在英國，但有時我真的很後悔沒有回去。

有時我稱自己是一個「意外的人權活動家」。從那時起，我就一直在為人權議題奔走。從事這份工作它有時非常有成就感。但同時，有時也非常絕望，但我們需要堅持希望，這也是為什麼我在這裡。

So I wanted to be a teacher in my country, but because my dad is a at that time, a former political prisoner, he has a criminal record in our country, so their children can't go to most of the university courses and I want To be a teacher's, but because of my dead criminal record, I can't be a civil servant in my country. So that's not just me, that's for everyone who either children or former political prisoners. So, but I was fortunate enough because my grandparents say, why don't you go to the UK for six months to study and, and also they found me an internship at the British Parliament. So I arrived to the UK and my dad got arrested for leading another peaceful protest. So I had two choices, where one is to go back home and take part in protests and get arrested. And two is to speak out in the UK and, you know, use the platform that I have to raise awareness about what's going on inside the country. So I was really strongly advise to choose the second option. And I did, sometimes I really regret not going back. But yeah, so sometimes I call myself an accidental human rights activist. So since then, I've been working on human rights issues. And it's really, I mean, it's very rewarding at times. But also, it's very devastating at times as well. But we need to hold on to hope. So here I am. Still.

鳴個喇叭緬甸街 16:25  
是的，你很勇敢。是的，我想就像你提到的，你在很小的時候就參與政治或接觸政治犯。我們看到自1980年以來的每一次合作，甚至更早，很多倡議者都被送進監獄，成為政治犯。像你的父親也幾乎每次都被拘留。他在監獄裡服刑的時間非常長。那麼，你能告訴我們更多關於緬甸政治犯的情況嗎？

Yeah, that's very brave of you. Yeah, I think like you mentioned, you've involved with politics or get in touch with political prisoners from a very early age and wrong what we have seen after each coop since 1980, or even earlier, a lot of activists were sent to jail and become political prisoners. And like your father also has been detained almost every time. And it's a very long time that he had to serve in the jail. So can you tell us a little bit more about the situations for the political prisoners in Burma?

Wai Hnin 17:02  
我們現在有超過13,000到15,000名政治犯。這些是我們知道的數字，因為我們不知道有多少人被關押在非常偏遠的民族地區的軍事拘留營。當然，我們也不知道有多少羅興亞人因為他們的宗教和信仰而被拘留。所以，但政治犯的情況在我們國家非常嚴重，因為這些政治犯大多數是年輕人，或者只是普通人，他們可能剛從大學畢業，準備成為一名護士或醫生。

他們被送進監獄之前，常常得被迫拘留好幾個月，在那裡他們經常受到折磨。有很多關於強姦、性暴力和其他形式的性騷擾的報告，包括婦女和男子，特別是對拘留中心的LGBT群體。因此，在他們被送進監獄後，他們沒有得到治療，無法治療所有這些酷刑造成的傷害。他們中的大多數人都是20多歲，甚至更年輕，因為他們去年開始參與抗議活動，抵制軍事政變，現在他們被關進了監獄。當他們出獄後，問題會更大，因為他們不能再上大學了。

We now have over 13,000 to 15,000 political prisoners. And these are the numbers that we know, because we don't know how many people have been detained in very remote ethnic areas in military detention camps. And certainly, we don't know how many Rohingya people have been detained for their religion and for their beliefs. So, but the situation of political prisoner is very critical in our country, because most of these political prisoners are young people, or just normal, you and I, you know, so most of these people are young people in university, or they just came out of university and started becoming a nurse or doctors. So now they're in prison. And before they were sent to prison, they had to stay in detention center for many months, and where they get torture a lot. So, you know, there, there are a lot of reports on rape and sexual violence and other form of sexual harassment on both women and men, particularly towards the, you know, LGBT group in detention center. So after they get sent to prison, they don't get medical treatment, to treat all these injuries from torture. And most of them are in their 20s, or even younger, because they started getting involved in protests last year, resisting the military coup, and now they are in prison. And the  problem will be bigger when they get released from prison, because they won't be able to go back to university. 

Wai Hnin 18:50  
他們不能做任何事情，他們將有犯罪記錄。所以他們不能再上大學了。如果你是一名醫生或護士，你不能回到你的工作崗位。如果你是一名會計，你的工作也不會接受你，因為你有犯罪記錄。你也無法找到新的工作，因為你有犯罪記錄。因此，這些年輕的專業人士是沒有未來的，你知道，他們應該只是每天生活和追求他們的夢想，但他們沒有，你知道，為他們的信仰站起來，他們站起來反對軍事獨裁，現在他們在監獄裡，當他們從監獄出來時，他們沒有未來。因此，這就是我們國家面臨的巨大問題。

They can't do anything, they will have criminal record. So they can't go back to university. If you're a doctor or a nurses, you can't go back to your job. And if you even are an accountant, your job will not take you back because of your criminal record. And you can't find new job because you have your criminal record. So there is no future for these young professionals, who are you know, who are supposed to be just living day to day live and pursuing their dreams, but they didn't they, you know, stood up for their belief, and they stood up against the military dictatorship, and now they're in prison, and they have no future when they come out of prison. So that's the huge problem we are facing in our country.

鳴個喇叭緬甸街 19:31  
這太荒謬了。尤其這群年輕人當他們被釋放時，他們仍然年輕。

That's ridiculous. These young professionals or young people when they were released, they're still young.

Wai Hnin 19:41  
是的，他們還有很長遠的未來。但我們國家的法律體系，我們仍然使用殖民時期的刑法，以前的軍事獨裁政府或文職政府下頒布的新法律，通常是為了扼殺政治異議。如果你參與人權運動或政治運動，或是如果你的母親或父親參與政治，你就沒有未來。他們希望你被孤立。

很多人們現在說，我不想參與政治，因為我不想經歷這些。我也不想讓我的家人經歷這些。但它正在發揮作用，試圖確保你永遠不要對軍隊說三道四，或者你永遠不要對我們國家的反對當局說三道四，否則，你會受到傷害。

Yeah, they still have a lot of life. Yeah, they still have their future but the legal system, shall we call it in our country, while we still use a penal code from the colonial time Most of the new laws introduced under the previous military dictatorship or a civilian government, most of this usually designed to stifling political dissent. So, you know, they really want to make an example out of you, if you are getting involved in human rights movement, or political movement, they really want to make an example and say, Look, because of your mother or your father gets involved in politics, you have no life. You know, so they really want to make sure that you're isolated, you have no future. So therefore, people now say, oh, you know, I don't want to get involved in politics, because I don't want to go through that. And I don't want my family to go through that. So it's working out. But now it's very interesting, because since last year, all these people who say, Oh, we, you know, we might not want to do anything now getting involved. They said we had enough. So yeah, we have that legal system, trying to make sure that you never speak out against a military or you never speak out against a against authority in our country, otherwise, you will suffer.

鳴個喇叭緬甸街 21:14  
是的，這對很多人來說一定很艱難，因為至少我們知道，在過去20年裡，緬甸發生了三次政變。所以我想，在這三次中，一定有很多特別是年輕人被關進監獄，成為政治犯。所以我相信有大量這樣的人，我想知道這一點是非常可悲的。在你搬到英國並在英國學習之後，你也開始在英國的緬甸運動組織工作，你也在大赦國際工作了很長時間。你能和我們分享一下你的工作情況，你做過哪些活動？

Yeah, that must be tough for lots of people, because there were, at least we know, in the past 20 years, as has been three coups in Myanmar. So I guess, during these three times, there must be a lot of especially young people put into prison and become political prisoners. So I believe there's a huge number of these people, I think it's very sad to know that. And after you moved to UK and studied in UK, you also started to work in Burma Campaign UK, and you've also work in Amnesty International for a long time. Can you share with us how about your work and what kind of campaigns have you done?

Wai Hnin 21:55  
我們做了很多國際宣傳，我們試圖提高人們對緬甸發生的事情的認識。因此，我們與很多政府官員會面。因此，當我在台北時，我很幸運地見到了總統和外交部長，談論了緬甸的情況以及台灣政府可以如何幫助。

當我去不同的國家時，我們會嘗試安排與政府官員會面，並確保他們知道他們可以做一些事情來幫助緬甸，並鼓勵他們這樣做。

除此之外，我們也做了很多倡議，例如政治犯、強姦和性暴力的議題，以及國家制裁。因為政變發生了近兩年，仍有許多國家在與緬甸軍方合作和做生意，尤其最大的兩個國家是中國和俄羅斯。

所以我們需要去推動國際社會採取有效行動。而這些有效的行動之一是制裁，像是對軍方擁有的公司和軍方擁有的企業進行定向制裁。

當然，我們也提高對國內人道主義援助的認識，以及各國如何向國內受苦的人提供實際幫助，向那些在當地工作的人提供適當的幫助。過程中有時候很有意思的是，一些國家會願意在金錢上給予幫助，給當地的人權組織一些錢，而他們卻不想公開談論人權狀況，因為他們不想破壞外交關係。我使用「外交」這詞，是因為無論如何都不應該與軍隊有外交關係。

所以我們試圖找到不同的方式，嘗試並研究國際社會幫助國內人民的各種方式，並提高這方面的認識。我的主要領域是政治犯。當我們談論為政治犯開展的活動時，這不僅僅是為了釋放政治犯，我們還要求康復和賠償。因此，在昂山素季政府時期，我們就這樣做了，因為有很多政治犯在監獄中被釋放。

但就像我之前說的，他們沒有未來，他們無法回到大學，也無法找到工作。他們經歷了酷刑和很多艱難的時間，我們希望推動對於這些非法監禁的補償，以及給正在幫助的政治犯家屬提供幫助。這些工作還伴隨著大量的研究。因此，我們通過謹慎、研究和遊說來正確地做這件事。

We do a lot of international advocacy as in, we try and raise awareness about what's going on in Burma. And so we meet with a lot of government officials. So I when I was in Taipei, I was fortunate enough to meet the president and also the foreign minister, to talk about the situation in in Burma and how Taiwanese government can do to help. 

And also, you know, that similarly, you know, when I go to different countries, we will try and arrange to meet with government officials, and make sure that they know that there are things they can do to help Burma and they, you know, and encouraged them to do. 

That's one part of it. But also, we do a lot of campaigning on, for example, you know, political prisoners, rape and sexual violence, but also on sanctions. Because even though it's been nearly two years since the attempted coup began, there are still many countries working and doing business with the Burmese military. I mean, the big two countries are China and Russia. So we, you know, encouraging and pushing, and sometimes you have to encourage, sometimes you have to push the international community to take effective action. 

And one of those effective action is sanctions, but targeted sanctions on military owned companies, and military owned businesses. So that's one of those things. And of course, we also raise awareness to for humanitarian aid inside the country, and how the countries can give practical help to people who are suffering inside the country, of course, we can continue working on human rights, movement and human rights activism, but appropriate help needs to be given to those who are working on the ground, because before you know, they have no income, they have nothing. But so they need to be given help. So we also push UK, US and other international government to give humanitarian aid. So sometimes it's interesting that some countries will be willing to help in money, to give some money towards human rights organizations on the ground, whereas they don't want to speak out openly about the human rights situation, because they don't want to damage the diplomatic relationship. I'm using 'diplomatic' and air quotes because there shouldn't be diplomatic relationship with the military anyway. So yeah, so we try and find a different way. And we try and research various way for international community to help people inside the country and we raise awareness about that. And my main area is political prisoners. And when we are talking about campaign for political prisoners, it's not just for the release of the political prisoner, we were also asking for rehabilitation and compensation. So we did that during the civilian government during under the 'Aung sun su kyi' government, because there were so many political prisoners who were released in prison. But like I was saying before, they had no future, they couldn't go back to university or they couldn't find work. So we are saying there needs to be a compensation for their unlawful arrest and unlawful detention. But also, they need to be giving a rehabilitation because they went through a lot of torture, and they went through a lot of hard time inside prison. So we also asked for those help. And also, you know, to give help to families of political prisoners who are helping, so we do find or identify different areas that needs attention and help and we raise awareness. And also it comes with a lot of research. So we can tell the government that look, these are the things you can do, you're just not doing it, because you don't have political will. So will you do it now? So we do it properly with care, research, and lobbying. So that's part of my work? Yeah. A lot of talking.

鳴個喇叭緬甸街 26:25  
從我在台灣看到的情況來看，因為台灣曾經歷白色恐怖。在過去的幾十年裡，台灣在轉型正義上做了很多努力。我認為要處理所有這些複雜的東西，一定是一個非常困難的過程。特別是你必須與家屬交談，你必須跟社會大眾溝通。我想有時這兩者之間可能會有一些衝突或兩難。所以我想知道在這整個過程中，你覺得最困難的是什麼？

I think from what we have seen in Taiwan, because Taiwan has has gone through the so called White terror. And for the past decades, there has been a lot of efforts in transitional justice in Taiwan. And I think it must be a very difficult process to deal with all this complicated stuff. Especially you have to speak to the families and you have to connect with the general public. And I think sometimes there might be some conflict or dilemma between these two. So I wonder what do you find most difficult in this whole process?

Wai Hnin 27:03  
對我來說，跟國際社會遊說或交涉並不困難，因為這是我的專業，以及我們團隊都會針對各個議題進行深度研究和分析。但這個過程令人沮喪，非常、非常沮喪，因為有很多事情政府單位可以做，而他們拒絕這樣做。因為他們沒有政治意願，或者他們不想破壞與該地區其他國家的外交關係。

與政治犯家人交談時，我也覺得非常困難，大多時候當我聽他們講述他們的親人如何被關押，他們的親人如何被帶走，我必須給他們鼓勵，我必須給他們希望。我必須作為一個阿姨或女兒在那裡，或者，你知道，我扮演一個不同的角色，與政治犯的家人交談。

但是知道國際社會可能不願意幫助我的國家的人，要把這種沮喪的趨勢轉化為某種希望和鼓勵，對我所交談的人來說，是非常困難的。畢竟我也不能保證他們的親人會被釋放。

所以這是一個極其困難的過程。但最重要的部分是，我們相互支持，讓他們知道他們並不孤單。你知道，我在聽他們說話，但我也在努力將他們與正在經歷同樣事情的不同家庭成員聯繫起來。因此，我們正試圖形成相互之間的團結網絡，以鼓勵你們相互之間。因此，這很好，但這是很困難的。

I find it I think both equally? Well, I would say, talking to international community and international actors is not difficult. It, it's easy, because I am confident. And also, like I said, all of our assets come with proper research and proper analysis. So we can do that. But I find the process frustrating, very, very frustrating, because there are so many things they can do, and they're refusing to do that. And because they don't have political will, or they don't want to damage a diplomatic relation with th countries in the region. And talking to families of activists and talking to families of political prisoners, I find it extremely difficult, because I, you know, most of the time, when I talk to them, and listening to their stories about how their loved one being in prison and how their loved one being taken away, and I have to give them encouragement, I have to give them hope. And also, I just have to be there as an auntie or daughter, or, you know, I play a different role talking to families of political prisoners. But knowing that international community is reluctant to help people in my country. To transform that trend of frustration into some sort of hope and encouragement to people I'm talking to, is extremely difficult, you know, to say them, and also I can't guarantee that their loved one will be released, because we don't know that. Right. So it's an extremely difficult process. But the most important part is that we are there for each other, to let them know that they're not alone. And you know, I'm listening to them, but also I'm trying to connect them with the different family members who are going through the same thing. So we are trying to form that solidarity network with each other to encourage you to each other. So that that's been good, but it's very, very difficult.

鳴個喇叭緬甸街 29:19  
是的，你也是政治犯的家庭成員，我認為整個過程也跟你的處境很相似。

Yeah, you're also a family member to political prisoners that I think the whole process also speaks for you.

Wai Hnin 29:29  
我認為我個人的成長經歷，你知道，它給了我很多洞察力，讓我知道我們會有什麼類型的情緒，我們有什麼類型的感覺，所以它給了我很多與家人交談的洞察力，所以我非常感謝這種經驗。當然，因為你知道，所有這些經驗可能是相當孤立的。所以我們必須確保我們彼此之間的聯繫。

I think my personal experience of growing up you know, it gives me a lot of kind of insight on what type of emotion are we going to be having and what type of feelings are we having so it gives me an A lot of insight to talking with family so I'm very grateful for that experience. And but of course, because you know, all these experience can be quite isolating. So we just have to make sure We are connected with each other.

鳴個喇叭緬甸街 30:03  
是的，就像我們在這一集的開頭所說的那樣，最近會有一本叫做《緬甸，最後的陣地》的書要發行。在這本漫畫中，有一條信息，它不僅描述了緬甸人民所經歷的情況和整個運動，而且還表達了一個觀點，我個人認為與以前的政變相比，它非常不同。但我想先問你，在你看來，2021年政變後，緬甸人民變化最大的是什麼？

Yeah like what we said earlier in the beginning of this episode, there will be a book called “Myanmar, the last stand” to release recently. In this comics, one of the messages, it not only describes the situation and the whole movement the Burmese people had gone through, but also express an idea that I personally find it very different compared to the previous coups. But I want to ask you first, in your opinion, what has changed the most for the people of Myanmar since the coup in 2021?

Wai Hnin 30:39 
好吧，你知道，我花了20分鐘談論整個局勢是多麼具有破壞性和多麼糟糕。但是還是有正面的消息，我們需要看看正向的事。

其中一件事是，我們看到人們之間的統一和團結，如來自不同民族群體的人。嗯，不同的宗教團體。在去年的政變中，我們看到很多生活在城市地區的人說，哦，我們沒有意識到軍隊是如何長期攻擊少數民族和民族地區的，我們沒有意識到羅興亞人一直在遭受痛苦和軍事攻擊，以及軍隊如何如此殘忍地攻擊羅興亞人和我們國家的少數民族，他們開始看到軍隊的殘暴，他們開始意識到有這麼多錯誤的信息運動在進行，在Facebook上，你知道，阻止這種信息的到來。在外面。因此，現在我們看到不同群體和不同民族之間的團結和統一意識，這是很重要的。在過去的抗議活動中，他們會呼籲民主和自由。但現在，人們正在呼籲聯邦民主。

Well, you know, I spent last 20 minutes talking about how devastating and how bad the whole situation is. But there are so many positive things and we need to look at positive things. 
And one of those things is that we are seeing the unity and solidarity between people people as in different people from different ethnic group people. Um, different religion group. During the coup last year, we saw a lot of people who are living in city areas, say, oh, we didn't realize how the military have been attacking ethnic nationalities and ethnic area for so long and we refuse to see that and they apologized and they they said, oh we didn't realize how Rohingya people have been suffering and the military attacks and how the military is so brutal in attacking Rohingya people and ethnic people in our country and they started to see that the brutality of the military and they started to realize that there were so many misinformation campaigns going on, on Facebook to, you know, prevent this sort of information coming. In out. So now we are seeing the sense of solidarity and unity between different groups and different, you know, ethnic nationalities which is great. And in the past with the protest, they would call for democracy and freedom. But now, people are calling for federal democracy. 


鳴個喇叭緬甸街 32:30
而這意味著什麼呢？

And what does that mean? 

Wai Hnin 32:32
一個對所有民族或少數族裔擁有平等權利的聯邦民主。不僅僅是像聯邦的「聯邦制」。它必須是一個包容性的聯邦民主模式，保證人們的這種平等和包容。不管你的性別、性取向、種族或宗教。這是一個巨大的成就。當然，對於國家建設進程來說，這將是一個漫長的過程。但至少這是一個巨大的成就，人們開始相互理解，我們已經在致力於過渡時期的司法，我們已經在討論如何在和平與和解中重建國家。我們正看到不同的世代走到一起。像我父親那一代人，如果他們不在監獄裡，他們就在外面抗議，或者他們在外面幫助年輕人進行抵抗，我這一代人，你知道，在國內和國外，提高意識，在當地工作，你知道，冒著生命危險進行抵抗，當然，年輕一代，比如，你有很多20多歲的人嗎？你知道，他們要么參加武裝抵抗運動，要么參加非暴力運動。所以我們都在一起，因為這必須是我們最後的戰鬥。是的，我們不能只在我們的政治體系中與軍隊共存。如果我們想重建國家，我們就必須一勞永逸地擺脫這種軍隊。所以，是的，所以有很多有希望的事情。

A federal democracy with equal rights for all nationalities or ethnic minority. Not just like federal “federal”. It has to be an inclusive model of federal democracy that guarantees that equality and inclusion of people. Regardless of your gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity or religion. This is a huge achievement. Of course, it will be a long way for the nation building process. But at least this is a great achievement, and people are starting to understand with each other, and we are already working on transitional justice, and we are already talking about how we can rebuild the country with peace and reconciliation. And we are seeing different generations coming together. Like my dad's generation, if they are not in prison, they are outside protesting or they are outsides are helping young people in this resistance and my generation, you know, inside and outside the country, raising awareness working on the ground, you know, risking their lives in this resistant, and of course, younger generation like, Are you many of them in their twenties? You know, either in armed resistance movement or either in non-violence movement. So we are all together because this has to be our last battle. Yeah, we cannot just live with military in our political system. We just have to get rid of this military once and for all, if we want to rebuild the country. So, yeah, so there are many hopeful things.

鳴個喇叭緬甸街 34:20 
是的，我認為，從我的觀察和在台灣，在南勢角的緬甸社區。我想我也看到了政變發生後的那種團結和統一。我認為在過去，你無法真正看到這個社區的團結意識，但我認為可悲的是，正是因為政變，人們才會走到一起，為他們關心的東西而奮鬥。最後一個問題，我想這是我們經常遇到的來自很多台灣觀眾的問題。那麼，作為一個台灣人或海外的緬甸人，我們能做些什麼來幫助他們？而目前緬甸人民最需要的是什麼？

Yeah. I think, from what I've observed and in Taiwan in the Burmese community in Nanshigiao in Taipei. I think I've also seen that solidarity and unity after the coup happened. I think in the past, you can't really see and sense of solidarity in this community but I think sadly it was because the coup that people are coming together to fight for something they care about. So last questions, I think this is the question that we've Often encounter from a lot of Taiwanese audience. So like, what can we do as a Taiwanese or overseas Burmese to help them? And and what is the most needed for the people in in Burma at the moment?

Wai Hnin 35:00 
那台灣人可以做的是提高對國家情況和緬甸情況的認識。如果你有機會與立法者或其他政府官員會面，你可以鼓勵他們給居住在台北的學生一個臨時身份簽證，甚至像我之前提到的，在我們國家有很多年輕的專業人士，沒有前途。因此，如果你能給他們一個臨時簽證，這對台灣也是有益的。這些人可以為台灣做出貢獻，作為一個國家。我知道香港學生和香港人正在得到某種幫助。所以，如果他們能把這種幫助擴展到緬甸的年輕專業人士，那將是非常了不起的。作為一個台灣人，你可以鼓勵你的立法者考慮這個問題。當然，還有人道主義援助，因為我們現在在少數民族地區和泰緬邊境地區有大量的國內流離失所者。所以，他們沒有任何錢，他們沒有，你知道，住房藥品或食物。

因此，如果台灣政府能夠向這些人提供人道主義援助。這將是非常有幫助的，作為台灣的公民，你可以與立法者會面，或者你可以鼓勵你的政府這樣做。

當我在台北時，我對這個國家的言論自由感到非常驚奇。我還參觀了228和平博物館。因此，在我們擺脫軍事政變後，在過渡期和如何在如此嚴峻的形勢下建立民主制度方面，我們將有很多東西可以向台灣學習。所以，這將是很好的。我已經和一些台灣人談過，交流關於過渡時期司法的想法，並交流。嗯團結，以及未來如何一起工作。所以，建立這種關係將是非常棒的。所以，我們可以互相學習，而主要是我們可以從你們那裡學習如何重建我們的國家，使它更多的如此表，使它更民主。當然了。團結是雙向的。所以，我知道台灣目前正面臨一個非常有趣的時期。所以，如果有什麼我們能做的，作為緬甸人權活動家，請讓我們知道。而且我們肯定會去的。所以，謝謝你。

Well and Taiwanese people can do what they can do is to raise awareness about the country's situation and the situation in Burma. And also if you have the chance to meet with legislators or other government officials, you can encourage them to give a temporary status visa to students who are living in Taipei or even as I mentioned earlier, there will be a lot of young professionals in our country with no future. So, if you can give a temporary visa for them, it will be but beneficial for Taiwan as well. These people can contribute to Taiwan kind of as a country. And I understand that some sort of help is being given to Hong Kong students and Hong Kong people. So, if they could extend that to Young professional in Burma, that will be amazing. And as a Taiwanese people, you can encourage your legislators to consider that. And also, of course, humanitarian Aid because we now have overflowing number of internally displaced people in ethnic areas and in border areas in Thai-Burma border. So, and they don't have any money, they don't have, you know, shelter medicines or food. 

So, if Taiwanese government can provide humanitarian Aid to those people. That would be very helpful and as a citizens of Taiwan you can meet with legislators or you can encourage your government to do. 
When I was in Taipei, I was very amazed with the country’s freedom of speech. I Visited 228 Peace Museum as well. So, after we get rid of the military coup, we will have a lot to learn from Taiwan in terms of transitional period and also how to build a democracy from such a dire situation. So, it will be great. I've already talked with a few Taiwanese to exchange ideas on transitional justice and to exchange. Um solidarity and how to work together in the future. So, it will be very great to build this relationship. So, we can learn from each other, while mainly we can learn from you on how to rebuild our country to make it more so table and make it more democratic. Of course. Solidarity goes both ways. So, I know Taiwan is facing a very interesting time at the moment. So, if there are anything we can do to help as Burmese human rights activists, please let us know. And we will be there for sure. So, thank you. 


鳴個喇叭緬甸街 38:00
非常謝謝你加入我們。今天我們討論了很多，關於緬甸現在發生的情況和緬甸人民的日常生活。非常感謝你今天加入我們。我希望，就像書名一樣《緬甸，最後一搏》，希望這個夢想能夠成真。非常感謝你。

Thank you so much. Thank you in advance for everything. Thank you for joining us. Today it was a very fruitful discussion about the situation and daily life of Burmese people now happening in Myanmar. Thank you so much for joining us today. And I hope, like the book title. “Burma, the last stand’. I really hope this will be a dream come true. Thank you very much. 

Wai Hnin 38:38
是的。非常感謝你給我一個機會來談論我的國家。我真的很感激。

Yeah. Thank you so much for giving me a chance to talk about my country. I really appreciate it. 



