wisdom flow convo charles-jeremy 20231122
[raw yt transcript]

0:04
ah hello world hello robot
0:12
yeah I needed an yeah 20 seconds just to figure out which map I'm gonna to pick
0:18
here and probably it will just
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be post active yeah so has a little sort context
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container setting for anybody who stumbles their way upon this this artifact we we were jamming and what
0:41
Peak my interest in particular you're obviously you know an interesting human Charles so you know there's
0:49
that you know I'll just say thanks yeah exactly that's the gracious thing to do well played um but you had
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mentioned that you had uh put together some patterns around um like Wise Wise
1:06
patterns and in the context of this project run the worldwi worldwise web
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that's obviously super interesting but I think in also in like the general
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context and just my vibe around collaboration and like basically
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avoiding the vast and easy mindfield of uh of really obvious and not so obvious
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fuckups um is where my interest sort of really gets peaked and goes ah okay like
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I see this thing as like the night is dark and full of Terrors as it relates
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to just communication and in some ways like being with other
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people um so anything that we can do to
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especially remove restraining forces and any like pattern patterning that you
2:03
find in there to like how to remove those restaining forces and just make it
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less hard is the so know that's that's that's
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I um I know this is about me and not about you but no I'm kidding but the
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liberating structures I'm intrigued about and I I have a sense already that um from my sort dabbling here and there
2:31
that that it does address that amongst probably other
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stuff yeah so I mean I I I say I think similar I'm not sure what you're going
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to show me but you know yeah for sure pattern library of generally Good Vibes
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that help both increase the surface area of
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participation uh but also guide dialogues in G generally productive
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directions and create breadcrumbs of those dialogues for folks not in the room
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immediately right on so I guess I'm gonna um kind of
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spoiler alert I'm just gonna drop in like straight ahead up front here the
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keyword the goal um and I'll kind of backtrack and
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um I'll I'm going to largely riff and hopefully not ramble too much I have set out some
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prompts for myself I have this is um what I'm what I'm going to go into will
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hopefully um describe clearly and coherently enough um something that I've been on to
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for uh in terms of refining the articulation two and a half years is uh
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and not consistently um somewhat lazily but just kind of you
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know just doing other things and coming back around to it and and not feeling um a very pressing need to kind of push it
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through but but it's coming around again during Harvest Time here so I'm I'm excited and delighted to to share more
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and peel back some more of this onion thing and so um the key word is
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trust and so um I didn't actually
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capture exactly the words that you were just using but you were kind of pointing to that but from other angles it's it
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felt like and so um what I've come to
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um is is uh an attempt and and through
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my intuition um at a a systemic framework which is pattern
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based to get to trust and and to get to it um
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with approximately two dozen uh patterns that's where I got to and I
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didn't refine that in over a year um kind of with a lot of
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attention but but it's been sort of sitting around kind of composting and ruing and stewing and um so I can trace
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a bit the trajectory of of where it came from how it emerged my you know my journey and my
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experience of um of of struggling and suffering Ing and and and and bleeding
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and be you know being being wounded not mortally but but it felt like it at
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times um and and scarred and so on you know through failed um collaborations and and failed relationships which were
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attempting to be professional so From The Trenches as we
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like to say pardon From The Trenches right oh yeah yeah yeah indeed like the
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painful lessons are the ones that are that juicy um so then I brought in another
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keyword which I think I mentioned the other day in the group which which is a professional or the variation on that is
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is business you know trying to be um um professional and businesslike and do
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business and come together with the intention to do business and the effort um and hopefully Clarity and
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understanding you know around which to do business and so on um business
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relationships and when you business I I I I get
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um productive right not not necessarily
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like there's there's there's a way in which I I I'm still trying to figure out
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what um professional means um but when but the the vibe that I get is like a a
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relationship of collaboration that should create something should create like that is not necessarily just for
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for The Vibes um but like we're trying to do a thing fair enough but that can be done
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altruistically and without money involved too and so you know there's
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there's there's stuff there but um it's more like a yes hand I guess than a than
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a butt but um but right but let me let me see if I can continue here
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so um and I didn't bring up I could with in
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not too long uh bring up the actual patterns which I don't have memorized fully but I do have chunks of them um I
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can explain a bit about the different um versions or stages of of how this
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evolved and it's again mostly from my intuition and just um keeping my eyes
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open and getting really clear through all this pain and struggle um and mapping out
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the anti- patterns there's a nerdy word but um you know the dark patterns the stuff that you don't want or the stuff
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that's there that that that you know really doesn't belong if you want to support the whole so there's there's
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another layer um for those that haven't heard me go on about this and and bang that drum about wisdom I'm taking a
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particular definition and approach to wisdom inspired by the great Tom Atley a
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wise Elder Visionary who's is uh very much still going up in utin Oregon who
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created the wise democracy pattern language and did defined um defines
8:31
wisdom there and refers to what he calls the prime directive of wise democracy which is uh to take into account what
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needs to be taken into account for the good of the whole for the long-term broad benefit and the long-term piece is
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relates to one of the patterns in this pattern language which is deep time perspective and that seven generations
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or more is a simple way to to to kind of boil that down more than we can imagine
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based basically you know the very long term and and what does that mean in
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terms of um how to to to know or to understand or even to measure and Define
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what's what's good of the whole well I as far as I can tell and I thought about this for quite a few years you have to
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keep checking you have to keep thinking about it growing your awareness and orienting and then if you talk about
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Collective wisdom well then you know you need to do that in a group Al together and keep doing it let's say iteratively
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you know at least every once in a while you need to kind of keep check checking and and calibrating and so on so that's
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the kind of very high level um concept conceptual framework here and then um
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what does that mean between two people never mind scaling Beyond two
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what does that mean first and foremost between let's say Partners or whatever kind of people coming together in
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relationship in a business context and
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um so uh maybe I will just continue on my little riff with um how it
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started I don't and then I I I'm not going to look at my notes right now um but but it at the beginning the main
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thing that was sorely lacking in some cases really epically dramatically um
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glaringly was was lack of listening and
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uh then I I kind of labeled it deep listening because then you know more than sort of regular listening um it
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needs to be another special kind of of listening I I think that that is essential as a as a basis as a as a
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ground um as a foundational route from which to to to to to Spring forth trust
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right so so now I start to refer to this um I didn't plan to talk about it like this
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but I'm just going to reflect a bit and and um uh there's a spectrum there's a kind
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of um not not exactly a scale it's not a
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it's not a ranking but it's it I do see a a progression in a in a in a in a kind of
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linear way but it's not linear but but but they all it I see the analogy of the
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spine the spinal column and the vertebrae and I'm just like vibing on my
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intuition and but I have been contemplating this quite a lot for a while and and so with your vertebrae you
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can't sort of skip any you can't sort of have you know not not very well or easily right you don't want to skip any
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and they all need to be intact you know for that that column to to to let to let
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the the fluid flow and all that and so
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um uh at the beginning of this whole thing I thought that deep l listening was the root and and then trust was was
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at the at the the peak and again I'm not um until maybe I pause and I find the
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actual map I make mind maps and so I that's how that was my process of like
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taking these antipatterns and just trying to like flip them around and say okay what's what's needed what's wanted
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in these um type of relationships um ongoing over time and
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then um I realized um that there's a few other things like
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like honesty and integrity and empathy and those are just a few that come to mind to give you an idea they're a bit
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more fundamental than listening let's say arguably and um so just also to give
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a sense of this this uh sequence that I was um sensing into and and still am and
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um so it's not so much about the rigid linearity of the sequence but that there is a sequence and and I I actually
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invite um collaboration and discussion around all this and I hope to to make it a collective thing but but I've just
13:06
been kind of like Brewing it in my Silo for a while and every once in a while kind of trying to bring a few people in
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or talk about it a lot of this really kind of blossomed or or exploded in a
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way after a really epic fail that I also referred to um the other day in our
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groups had failed conversation um so without trying to go into that then I had a lot of fresh learnings and
13:31
experience to draw from there and then it it kind of doubled in size more or less at the time um but it's still it's
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not like a huge collection again it's it's probably 20 20 to 22 patterns or
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something at this point um the
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so go ahead yeah yeah I like the way that you described I think the the
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vertebrae is such a great metaphor and there's something as well as that that the way that I can Envision the stacking
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and I get that you said that it's not linear but there's a way that these things build on each other and there's
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something about not putting the cart before the horse right that is that is
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like right that like
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that it says like as if something is more essential right then like build on
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that as a foundation rather than trying to Aspire yourself into something is
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that is like a higher order of coherence but if you don't have like if
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I think about it literally like you know what what the they call it what is it the you know the mulab bond the root
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lock right that shit's not tight you know handstand is hard as an
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example right yeah
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totally totally so I wanted to mention what is at the root at this point after
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you know at this stage in the evolution and it's kind of um it was a
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little bit up for grabs I think I'm still going for Source at the uh wait what was it
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yeah I so this this was one of the of the small handful that was contributed
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by a friend of mine and um uh it was suggested that source is is
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at the base or at the root I had had uh love there before and so it's probably
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source and then love something along those lines just to give a sense of the the the the Primitive I guess you could
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say um and when you say Source you're talking about like working with source and like Tom stuff oh boy or are you
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talking more about like ins trying to trigger me now Jeremy this is very you
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have no idea you have no idea what you just said and it's and and no nobody that's listening back to this either but
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that's very interesting because no I'm not talking about that I um in fact um
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that is is um uh in a very um Sinister is the word
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that comes to mind way um related to this whole story that I was telling the other day about this this co-founder
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that decided after a bunch of stuff that it was her vision she was she fell sway
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The Source oh yeah she was the source and
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she Rel the very first session after a whole year and a half well after more or
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less this regular rhythm of one year that I didn't show up she got this guy um Nixon in there talking about all this
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stuff it was it was literally like that and this guy Now What's his name he
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actually lives in Zurich not very far from me Peter kunig he um and I took a
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walk after all this went down and I and he allowed me to record him interviewing and he told me all this
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stuff and it was very interesting timing so yes um you're aware of this stuff
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probably even more than I am only on a surface level and now that's a digression well it's a kind of relevant
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one um it's a bit of a I think it's a good it's a good distinction right so okay if you're not
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pointing at that we're talking about like I you're Point like the big
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the big the big Source yeah this is a spiritual Dimension to all this stuff so that's that is source that that I'm
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referring to here um to give to give a sense of the scale of that Spectrum it's
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uh from source to trust and then you have to kind of really fill in the the
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the the blanks if you will in between and and they do have a a sequence in
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terms of like energetic progression this is the premise
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um I'm punching up in my Silo here and
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I'm going to see if I can um bring this up
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because huh if map yeah maybe I have it here okay I'm just riffing is cool and
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everything play but show me the matap Charles show me the mat man yeah well and the map um it's pretty it's
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pretty rudimentary but but uh here here it comes
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um this was shared in a in a public
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group um but not so much screen shared but this was on a mirror board AR of fact um with the open Future Coalition
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two years ago in fact just over it was it was the 11th of November of 21 and
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that was the last time I actually updated the document um just dealing with
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my cookies and I don't know it's pretty up
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um now can I hide save my progress no stop I guess
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that's not really in the way this is I'm not logging in on this thing at the moment um okay here we go hello World um
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this is called interoperability flow AKA
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if and um great so and and actually there's
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and and and here I will I think I only shared this with Lawrence um last week when it just came to me I have a new
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acronym in addition to if it is um so so let me just I step back very
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slightly the other way that I've been describing this is um informing wise relationship right it's just sort of
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ways to inform wise relationship again in a professional context and um and
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what is the acronym for patterns of wise relationship it's power
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baby and so that just hit me just just less than a week ago and and so yeah I
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kind of like that I'm still trying it on um and so there before I get to man
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that's there's there's a poetry in there Charles like that just some somehow
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like I just want to just want to like pause on like how good that makes me
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feel right when I think especially about the will to power as like like yes
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right it's like it really takes it really subverts something that is seen
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that is like so common place on one hand
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and like um see and and rightly seen as
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toxic and really just like shakes it the out of it and like
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says no no no no we got that this the will the will to power the will to
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patterns of wise of what patterns of wise relationship I was like yeah all right
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let's go right on well Ju Just to tag on and um and and say this is definitely
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not about individual power um it it can be power between two or more let's say
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let's put it like that and I think starting with the two is really crucial um for a bunch of reasons that I haven't
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sort of analyzed in a in a nerdy way but but one thing is
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um uh oh what was it now my mind just did a little Loop
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um uh G's law right this uh start small and simple and then you can scale from
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there G's law Brad told me that one and and so if we can if we can do it with
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two if we can get the wisdom flow now there's another word I'm bringing in flow and I'll come back to that but the
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um interoperability flow is very much about the flow of wisdom and what does
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that even mean well there there it gets into the broader conceptual thing which I'll I'll just just get to before we
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finish um which just to flag it it's about Doug engelbart and Tom Atley kind
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of mashed up not not not quite that simple but but in a way you know at
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least that that's a a basis to build on um and so let me see we're still looking
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on the screen and I'm not doing anything here but um um just to say that the
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collective power or the collective wisdom is really the the thing here right it's it's and and and lastly and
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then I'll get back to the to showing something is um uh that's my and I got
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it again from Tom Atley the the primary criticism um and critical difference
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between collective intelligence and Collective wisdom because collective intelligence is not by definition and
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default good for everybody and then from there because it's not you know then then it often is
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is exactly the opposite and and so on um and so okay here we are back on this um
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these new notes I don't know if there's something relevant there and can I
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quickly navigate this thing because I have this is mindmeister and I'm just trying oh there okay so the premise
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um here's the part I didn't mention before um I was talking about the patterns and
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the sequence and all this now the grounded and rooted is is kind of the core narrative here
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and um and the idea I I'll kind of flash these sequence these patterns and
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sequence so I talked about trust the way I have it in the map it's at the bottom of the list but it's really like the top
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of the of the it's it's the you know the Christmas tree star or you know the the eye on the pyramid what do you want to
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call it um so these are just now I'm flashing these and and I'm not going to try to go through all of these but
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they're quite fundamental and um and then each one sort of in descending
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order on this on this visual here um trust is is grounded and rooted in
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accountability is grounded and rooted in responsibility and so on that's that's
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the narrative um flow and the whole um system is fundamentally grounded and
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rooted in Source without all of these intact and in sequence we do not arrive at trust that is what I am really
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looking forward and and thank you just for inviting me to this conversation and and sort of helping me to move forward
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and make it we and sort of um start to look at it closer and and actually test
24:57
T it out prototype right I I've been up at this edge of prototyping for quite a
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bit too long and I've been aware of that but just obviously haven't been able to
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make it a priority um also just again the sequence has come through intuition
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and contemplation and and collaboration I'm not going to edit this document here but um and then lastly
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um just to give a sense now this interoperability right this is the um
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the title here interoperability flow this is a buzzwordy thing in a lot of
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the the nerd circles obviously um I'm taking this again to fundamentally it's
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about relationship and how does that relationship Express or manifest well
25:45
interoperability it also gets into you know machines and whatnot but but people interoperability fundamentally and then
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everything in between this is another kind of vague sequence or Spectrum which is roughly
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uh communication cooperation collaboration choreography just to give a sense there's probably more here but
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these are um the sort of um different um forms and scales of what's broadly
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interoperability or you could say relationship and that I'll just read
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this last and then I'll stop the share all of these coherently present and in sequence are the core values principles
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patterns required for healthy flow in any and all forms and scales
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of of these things in other words this is a meta I don't know if protocol is
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exactly right but maybe I'm kind of sort of feeling my way to making a sort of meta protocol um and okay the one other
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word that I think maybe I mentioned before but it is virtue or virtues and I
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haven't I don't have enough of a basis in philosophy to to understand the technical aspect of that but I Came Upon
27:02
that and that's kind of one of the next um waves of my inquiry is that these um
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patterns oh let me just quickly um what I didn't
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do is actually a slightly more slowly go through these patterns and just to just
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to mention that I found that most but not quite all probably are seem to be
27:26
values and then further this is like the Leading Edge of of my next next phase of
27:31
inquiry has to do with virtues because I actually think these could be many could
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probably be interpreted as virtues so I'm G to shrink it down slightly so you
27:43
can just see that it's um Source love Integrity composure honor compassion
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empathy honesty respect care mutuality
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attuning deep listening see there was that was that was the the the root at
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the beginning and all these kind of jump the queue um synchrony this was a I had
28:11
this this concept of Rhythm and groove and maybe that could be boiled down to synchrony um responsiveness and
28:18
reciprocity now those were actually two that were in the original set so I didn't mention that but deep listening
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responsiveness now I'm W I'm wagging my finger look at that fired up Charles fired up but this
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is this is these are the things that are missing typically the listening part and the
28:39
responsiveness and reciprocity piece th you know and those are like for me now
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they're deal breakers no right no not acceptable and so responsibility
28:52
accountability it relates a lot to those those things and then you get to trust again this is not not trying to be
28:58
complete and comprehensive and um mine I I you can't the whole point is it's not
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mine but but this is what I got that I'm offering up and
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um thank you I'm here all week
29:16
no yeah yeah yeah I can dig it I can dig it for sure
29:26
there's so one thing that was not a part of my um like rant the other day um was
29:38
uh this bit around uh relational
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coordination and I
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think like I guess I should have I'm gonna
29:56
have to like Define that a little bit um but but that seems a little a little
30:02
jump in the heart the cart before the horse so the the the emphasis on trust
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like as in some ways what I what I see when I when I read through that that
30:16
laundry list or that that stack and is
30:23
that the is that trust is the goal actually
30:30
right I know you didn't describe it as a goal but like if we put trust as the
30:35
thing that we're going for like
30:40
then you know if we're able to get there then it's the starting line it's I just
30:46
have to say it's the Finish Line That's The Starting Line exactly and and and
30:52
what I interpret by that and what I'm go what I mean is that that is the enabler
30:57
that means that whatever the obstacle is that presents itself we've got ourselves this Rock Solid chance of being able to
31:05
address it sufficiently in the absence of that thing like obstacle equals stress equals
31:13
you know triggering my fight my amydala and you know we end up
31:19
at each other's throats in response to um situation but with that trust we have
31:27
the opportunity of maintaining that sense of relationality and Attunement
31:33
and being able to co-regulate in the face of adversity and for me it's that ability
31:41
to co-regulate our nervous systems that actually gives us a a chance of of being able to face the
31:50
present you know with some form of equinity that gives us the hope uh a
31:57
hope in Hell of being able to both survive it and with our relationality
32:04
intact right so allow me just to add on there
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about okay I'm gonna bring in something I left out which I have often woven into
32:17
the the description of all this which has to do with signals and signal flow um I guess I can I'm gonna try to
32:24
come back to that but just to say that
32:32
um yeah when you need when when you mess up one of your vertebrae you know or or or God forbid
32:39
need to have like spinal surgery or whatever yeah then you know you need to sort of isolate the parts but they're
32:45
not really separate as they function you know and and so these like sort of zooming in on
32:52
trust it's not like that they're all connected all the time in a dynamic
32:58
and so I just wanted to flag that like you know you literally don't get there
33:03
without all of all of it that's the that's the whole exactly yeah yeah yeah
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it's not like you know hang let me just add like with wisdom it's uh in in a common vernacular
33:16
it's it's a noun it's objectified it's not though
33:21
anyway yeah yeah no it's it's it's very much in the frame in the frame of verb
33:28
yeah exactly it's a thing that we do together and and it has a lot of there's
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a line of inquiry that U I learned from this dude fiser that I think is is great
33:39
and that's basically what is trust or what is X what is X not what are the parts of X
33:48
and what is X a part of right and so I think
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that like in the in the in the vibe of trust is a verb I think you've got a
34:00
really like dope ass list of what the parts of trust are right and again
34:08
coming back to this spinal cord spine um metaphor like I I love it so dearly
34:15
because I got a up back right you know these X jocks hit by a car blah blah blah right and so at at one point a
34:23
few uh you know like 10 years ago I broke my sacrum right which is not the
34:30
SP you know which is which is like is it is it not yeah exactly it's connected
34:36
you know it's the root of something right um and and like then the way in
34:42
which that manifests not in um in both my hips but also you know in my
34:51
like my the what what's the top curve doesn't matter it's the
34:57
weeds but you know it it it manifests in a problem between my shoulder blades
35:04
right more so than anywhere else
35:10
um because of that like that slippage somewhere right means that the the whole
35:16
stack is basically somewhat in somewhat of a house of cards right that okay it may
35:23
not show up it may not show up there in manifest in any way that seems super out
35:28
of whack at the place of the misalignment there you go but the the
35:34
continuity is is disrupted in such a way that it's gonna show up somewhere right
35:40
yeah yeah y that's a great that's a great way to extend a metaphor I appreciate that so
35:46
it's totally true I mean you know it very well and um and
35:52
so again I mean my sort of uh fervent wish that that um I haven't been able to
35:59
put enough steam behind um to sort of Push It Forward much but but you know everything has its time um is for this
36:07
to to literally be um you know kind of
36:12
designed to to be integrated into systems into code and so forth not only
36:17
of course definitely the social stuff social flow
36:24
um signal flow I mentioned I wanted to to come back to that and also to
36:30
something about Doug Doug engelbart and all of that um and let's see what how how am I going
36:38
to frame all this just to say again the beginning was a very
36:44
um uh Stark awareness that that the listening piece was missing and the
36:50
responsi and reciprocity was missing um and I can point to particular
36:55
examples but at the moment it doesn't matter it's patterns that that continually show up and and we all know this and whether we pay attention or
37:03
what we do about it that's something else and now I've I've I've tried to um you know take this at least um for
37:09
myself as a a set of criteria to at least assess uh going into relationship
37:15
with people um but there's you know there's clear things things that are clearly uh over the line and deal
37:22
breakers for me as I mentioned um so so just to put it in terms of
37:28
signal flow then you know you can you can kind of play that out in throughout all these different things um and that I
37:36
guess that's probably useful when you start to articulate that you know applying it to in machine systems and
37:42
stuff I hope so that's kind of as far as I got at the moment on that
37:48
um Douglas angelart I guess we're documenting this
37:54
for others who have no clue CL who that is and so I'm not even G to ask you if
37:59
you know about Doug engelbart but do you know about Doug engelbart that's all right um there were
38:07
um a couple of Colonel hunto conversations a year ago a slightly more
38:13
than a year ago um that I organized produced curated Etc that um
38:20
related uh both in different ways and one more um overtly to what I'm I'm
38:25
going to share and um but we gathered um well the first one was was with Nora
38:31
Bateson and Tom Atley end of October in 2022 and then 1
38:37
of November the week later was um Tom Atley again with Howard reinold George poror
38:44
Ward Cunningham was around um he was not sort of featured but but he ended up
38:49
featuring in that and um and and a bunch of people from kernel bunch of of great
38:55
folks with great projects and then others that came around and some of the Common Sense makers guys and so on um
39:02
and the theme was uh about um Community gardening and
39:08
and through this lands of wisdom which is the the good for the whole for the
39:13
long term and anyway um and some of the people there Howard
39:22
and um George and Ward I guess in particular knew Doug engelbart who was
39:28
arguably the father or one of the sort of the key key fig Visionary figures um
39:34
of in of what's now interactive Computing and so really seino um figure
39:39
in Tech Innovation um and I'm not I'm no expert
39:45
but I did um the last few years go down a rabbit hole of researching and studying and learning and and I'm still
39:51
there he um let's see I'm I'm noticing the clock and we have 10 minutes yeah 11
39:58
minutes whatever um so just to say I'm going to throw out a couple of his terms
40:03
that are a bit Cluny and that's just kind of how he was he he was a very brainy guy and some of these are not
40:10
very accessible in themselves but um I'll try to to reduce them down in a in
40:15
a simplistic way which is not quite fair but but I think it's useful for explaining how I'm trying to put this
40:21
stuff together um so again Tom Atley and his idea about wisdom as wholeness so
40:27
being good for the whole I'll I'll lead into engelbart by
40:33
saying what I feel what I sense um in in my Learning
40:39
Journey was missing or uh May lacking in some ways and and could could could have
40:45
been improved in the in the vision and the systems that he was was able to deploy in the teams and and um networks
40:53
um was was a kind of a social layer let's say this this wisdom piece around good
40:59
for the whole for the long term it was not there as a premise it was not not um
41:06
you know it was about it was it ended up initially coming out of military
41:11
Innovation there was this kind of a very narrow golden age where where it was
41:17
where there were funds that were not specifically earmarked for for for military applications but um but more um
41:24
for Humanity let's say I'm I'm probably butchering a bit of that but something like you know it was be it was when arpa
41:32
um was arpa before it was DARPA the D being for defense and so just to say um
41:40
uh angelart evolved um the Machinery to
41:46
support teams groups um that were networked through these computers and
41:51
that was a really brand new at the time and um uh um their interaction engagement
42:00
with what he called now I'll just start to throw in some of these terms um uh the dynamic knowledge repository so the
42:07
not so a repository of of knowledge of data if you will um and but the dynamic
42:13
part is pretty key and and um there's a couple of ways to express
42:19
that that um I'll just say one is um conversational that was from Howard
42:25
reinold he he said uh and he knew Doug very well um that was a kind of way to
42:30
express the energy and I I've been calling it flow for for a couple of years and um and so this interaction
42:38
between the the group or the team and the repository has to be dynamic it has to be flowing this is essentially you
42:45
know and you need to have and the team by the way he called the he had different names but uh the networked
42:51
Improvement Community ni see networked Improvement community
42:58
Community that's networked Improvement it's dedicated to
43:03
Improvement it's dedicated to improving its Improvement in fact now that's
43:09
another thing which is a bit of a mind twister he called it the ABC model A being business as usual B being
43:17
uh improving business as usual and C being improving B improving the
43:24
Improvement so um I'm going to leave it there for
43:31
now those are the kind of high level points of this kind of framework that I
43:36
Envision oh no I I'll add I'll add a little bit about the community gardening I now this is the other metaphor that
43:42
I'm mashing up in here and transposing which is to consider the repository as a
43:47
garden and this Dynamic flow as you know sort of a thriving garden now you know
43:53
if we're talking about teams and communities well that's community garden right and um so there's something there
44:00
for us in including in the worldwise web and
44:06
anywhere to deal with that metaphor and to to like grow that garden and um and
44:11
it didn't you know this was in this was uh this time of year fall season of uh
44:18
2022 it did not occur to me I it was right in front of me the whole time but this year 2023 was the tsunami of of all
44:27
this uh GPT stuff and I it only hit me a few months ago like let's say in the
44:33
summer um that actually that is uh an approach somehow to to this um
44:42
uh data and language models um to to be really Collective somehow in this community gardening sense now you know I
44:49
just offer this as a metaphor so far and um there you have it yeah
44:56
thanks for L yeah yeah I think I dig it
45:03
um flow and signal flow are very close to my heart I think that's that's
45:09
effectively the vibe that's why Libera structures work is because they increase
45:15
the flow of signals right you get more flow you rise throughput to your
45:21
potential or bandwidth of signal flow and everything sort of gets easier
45:29
right just because there's so much more like processing computation like there's
45:35
just so much more happening that hey you know we can we can afford vast
45:43
amount of redundancy we can afford going backwards and getting distracted if
45:49
we've got what more information flow then we don't need to Stamp Out the the
45:55
inefficiency of those differences we can just see if they go anywhere interesting
46:01
and then hey cool benefit of a sidebar that turns out to reveal
46:06
something Nifty and you know because we got so much
46:11
flowing um there was a relationship I think with this around relational
46:18
coordination that I think might be pretty nifty I can find it right quick I know I
46:25
can find it because for whatever reason mention while oh okay well I'll come back when
46:34
you're well just just to say in the in the aforementioned Kiko lab which which I didn't really talk about on this call
46:40
but the other day um the you know I was I was referring to these epically long
46:45
Zoom sessions that we were having the so I I had this concept that
46:51
we were doing well every week in waves I kind of alternated with my co-founder she had another concept concept I was
46:56
calling it The Flow show because I I'm a radio guy from like way back and so I
47:01
had this radio approach to these Zoom sessions and I just realized you know the main thing actually that was a a
47:08
quick lesson from my radio days which was um you know when technical difficulties
47:14
come up you don't call attention to them on the air you just got to keep the flow going and that's like the number one yes
47:21
so number one rule you keep the flow going and so I had this whole concept of the flow show and and we would we would
47:26
organize them in different ways and then as I mentioned the um after the formal structured part then we had the after
47:32
flow which was the real flow was happening so just want to share that with this is the vibe so yeah this is
47:40
like this in my like Pursuit of understanding what the I'm doing
47:46
with liberating structures so in like my relationship with liberating structures is autodidactic there's no like there's
47:54
no there there is some some in some Essence some form of training but that training always takes the place of here
48:02
try these things out and then go off and do what you want with them so I've done a lot of off with
48:08
liberating structures and doing what I want with them um but like exactly where
48:13
they come from you're Taking Liberties yeah exactly where they come from or
48:19
what I'm doing like that that is still continues to be a mystery that I'm
48:24
unfolding in that exploration around what what what's going on there um I
48:29
landed on this stuff relational coordination which is I mean just read it right I I
48:37
think in similar in a similar way if you nail these things like doesn't matter
48:44
what your domain what your content is you'll be all right right if the frequency of your communication is
48:49
adequate compared to the area of your work if it's happening on uh if it h
48:55
it's happening at the right time right I think when you come that that whole L
49:00
yeah yes yes you just reminded me of something else go ahead yeah excellent
49:06
right if you're if the information it's all about you know increasing the signal
49:11
flow in order to get the information to the right place at the right time of course and of course you know relevant
49:18
accurate information relevant to me is a little bit more uh resonant than than accurate
49:25
but great you know are we talking about things that are factual would be would be a great place to start to find
49:31
relevance um you know are we focused on problem solving so are we focused on the problem at hand and are we do we have
49:39
enough trust to keep us out of playing the blame game and getting caught up in defensiveness you know are we
49:45
pursuing the the overlap in our goals right are we are we ex are we playing
49:53
power games or are we sharing information you know maximally and you
49:59
know are we rooted again in that sort of like mutual respect that like hey what your your part your part of the puzzle
50:06
matters my part of the puzzle matters you're okay I'm okay let's go so
50:12
like I said if if more or less we get these things sort of squared away I think our signal flow helps us with that
50:20
um getting the the relevant information in the right place at the appropriate time
50:26
um so I think there's a there's a nice sort of parallx Slash overlap of like
50:32
smashing these things together and going ah yeah there's there's like if I think
50:38
about the the the yeah heit me I have the little cherry on
50:45
top and then we can uh round up another time this is great um you may have heard
50:50
me mention this but um this is also something I haven't really fleshed out I
50:55
kind of bring it out in a lot of conversations because it's so relevant to like everybody's every day and every
51:01
night well um and that has to do with um uh synchronous and
51:11
asynchronous and so my um just for my you know a lot of this stuff just came
51:17
up came up for myself like internally just like to deal with my and my world and um but I I I have this amalgam
51:26
that I call semi- sync semisynchronous because there is also between
51:33
synchronous like we're arguably synchronous although there's probably some latency that's being all smartly
51:39
accounted for and blah blah blah but more or less you know we have at least this nice illusion that we're hanging out in real time um and then there is
51:47
sort of uh whatever you want to say is pure async um you know emails and very
51:55
ious kinds of chats and whatnot and then you start to get into this stretchy linal mode in between where you see
52:01
people's lights on you see the typing signals on some maps and and you know what I mean you know they're there on
52:07
the other end watching and waiting and they're going to respond and that's much closer pretty much to synchronous right
52:14
so I just call it Al together semi- sync because it's stretchy so I just want to offer that
52:20
because this all this signal flow stuff is within semis sync it's not sync only
52:26
and it's not only a sync for sure it cannot be
52:32
word there you go boom yeah yeah and there's a and what I can dig behind that
52:38
is that that sort of solves the the what I might describe as a bane of my
52:44
existence being the finding times right there's there's
52:50
a part of my brain that does not like finding times that finds very
52:55
challenging I mean schuling yeah yeah scheduling scheduling is a nightmare especially in a
53:02
group greater than one right you know greater than one becomes really
53:07
challenging um I'm gonna just be be ballsy and bold
53:13
and probably naive to to claim that I am a scheduling ninja and it doesn't phase me now of course the larger and the more
53:20
complex then it's it's all up and I'm not saying I'm not daunted by that necessar
53:25
but I'm I'm up for anything because I have and I even I somewhere buried in
53:32
handwritten notes I actually wrote down a kind of a scheduling protocol and blah blah blah I'm like that like I I don't
53:38
even know where that is at the moment but I have an approach and it's
53:43
semi-scientific there you go there's another one semi sync semi scient semi
53:49
scientific semi you know I like it I like it dope tot pleas
53:56
thanks for invitation to reach out yeah yeah I'm Keen to yeah it's
54:03
interesting right so one one of the things that I I oh man this is why is this so hard so
54:11
one of the the thing I'm really good at is taking Frameworks and like mixing them up and mashing them together um so
54:20
I was really stoked um in advance looking at this you know thinking about the possibilities for this um wisdom
54:28
flow and going okay how how do we how do I how do I think about like ways to
54:34
smash that up in terms of like organizing and structuring it and part of me is a little disappointment because
54:40
disappointed because I'm the because I think what you're pointing at is so fundamental like it is like
54:49
it's while it's both essential that for example source is present it's not
54:56
something that it definitely defies simple
55:02
proceduralization and like oh we can we've now checked the source box right you know source is present move on to
55:09
the next step right there's there's something it feels both uh very
55:15
Schrodinger esque that source does both fills the box and like bleeds out uh a
55:22
you know um you know exceeds the Box in a in a in an interesting and Powerful it
55:28
is the box I mean you know you could whatever yeah I um do you have three more minutes
55:38
maybe or or it doesn't it's kind of already feeling pretty full and satisfied there's I I didn't look at my
55:44
notes at all and I realized there was a couple of other pieces just to lay out for the next time yeah man as long as
55:51
I'm as I seem cogent then I'm I'm good to go I'm just going to pass out after this so right on
55:57
um uh okay so one thing that could relate but at the moment it's a bit
56:03
adjacent but um and that is you may have heard about this notion that Lawrence
56:09
mentioned maybe sometimes called weing it's a group inquiry process that that
56:15
um I I kind of we it was kind of in a group a few years ago but I basically
56:21
had this idea to to how to do a group inquiry with eaching and so I just wanted to mention that
56:28
because I think with um these weo weaves and stuff there could be some really really juicy stuff around Collective
56:34
inquiry that's interesting I was just thinking I was walking the dog in the park the other day when I the for
56:42
whatever reason it's so funny because the the eing is one of those things that's like in the in the
56:50
collective Consciousness but I I couldn't tell you any of the the
56:55
constituent Parts but it seemed so resonant with what I was
57:00
with on liberating structures that there's just like a limited collection
57:06
of really good moves like okay everything can be your metaphor and you could have infinite moves but like at
57:13
the end of the day there's not so many there's not actually infinite good moves like if you just if you try
57:20
to make all right how many moves is enough to make sure I've always got them move it would probably be somewhere
57:26
between 8 and 12 right and like you know 12 would make you like really like have
57:32
a lot of options but Eight's probably enough right to have a you know
57:37
a move for every moment so to speak so I I find it both delightful and
57:45
pretty cool okay yeah this this idea about the moves I don't exactly follow I sort of
57:52
get the basic idea but but let's let's come back to all that um
57:59
the there's a thing which there's another thing that that um I came up
58:04
with um through my naive intuition which we in the kiko lab going back a couple
58:10
of years at this point um played with um here and there we dabbled with in in
58:15
groups on Zoom um a handful of times with some decent results but never
58:21
consistently and that is a process which is sort of waiting to be picked up and
58:26
and brought forward and gamified it was never really gamified and it is called
58:32
pattern jamming and I want to just speak that out here um and it's a pretty cool thing
58:40
which we were using um uh mirror board and stickies um but we never really got a
58:47
group process going together and but it sort of involves more or less having
58:52
these uh you know fra frame names and stickies on a mirror board and um starting to like for example that that
59:00
whole story that I just told before about the the patterns of wise collaboration and the how it came from
59:05
looking at the anti-patterns well that we some of it actually came from a group
59:11
process in this um in this pattern jamming mode um so again just just kind
59:18
of flagging that for another time and I guess those are the main
59:25
things for now I think you know I know you're very go ahead
59:31
B oh Jesus Christ well you
59:36
know political dis political dystopia happening
59:41
and all of a sudden there um well you know it's been growing for years as it
59:48
has been everywhere but you i' like to think that this place was a little serer I'm in the Netherlands they had a
59:54
elections today and so the the former the oh yeah you know just
1:00:03
racists winning that's it that's it I wish I
1:00:08
could say I'm surprised going that way here in Switzerland too I mean I you know and I
1:00:15
don't vote here so I don't even really look much but yeah
1:00:22
it's it's kind of ugly out there yeah yeah ugly out there in the media in
1:00:29
public a lot of public sphere stuff it's not ugly in here in in a lot of places
1:00:36
but well I know people I I can dig the fact that like are scared right the
1:00:44
world is a real scary place right now when you look at the the when you can
1:00:50
see all of the the blemishes of and shortcomings of industrialized
1:01:00
civilization across the entire planet right when you can gain access to all
1:01:06
those sticky little widgets the world becomes a scary place and you know in
1:01:12
the absence of this in the absence of trust right and all of its constituent
1:01:19
parts right that you know are you know we're still pursuing
1:01:25
this this Vision you know of you know the hero right we're still
1:01:31
looking for we're looking for our our heroic savior yeah yeah papa to come
1:01:38
make it all better and Tuck Us in at night and like I don't I don't think it
1:01:43
works like that at any rate it's it's pattern yeah I mean structural racism is
1:01:50
also sort of cellularly embedded you know it's it's you know EP genetics and all that it's it's a bunch of stuff but
1:01:58
just a few more keywords to throw in at the end
1:02:03
um nighty night yeah exactly sweet dreams thanks
1:02:09
for hanging um yeah there's a lot more and I'm glad
1:02:15
to sort of pick this stuff up and uh let's grow some Gardens you know yeah
1:02:20
for sure I think there's something nice though about this thing sort of coming in like across the face across the bow
1:02:28
of where of this line of inquiry in exchange as well and that is like I
1:02:35
guess these are the stakes both the stakes and the context that we're playing in right
1:02:42
that entropy is going to entropy right and continue that positive feedback loop
1:02:50
downward Direction you know and yet you know if we can if we
1:02:56
can if we can get any amount of like positive feedback loop positive you know
1:03:02
upward direction if we can get any amount of rightness on that that like it
1:03:09
is extraordinarily incumbent on us to just like take the next incremental step
1:03:17
of like you said improving the Improvement on that just being a part of
1:03:22
that of that process and that tradition more than anything um and you
1:03:29
know in the context of that deep time like there's something really
1:03:36
comforting about that that if I can just play my part and increasing the the the
1:03:43
Fidelity and coherence of that and just go through the cycle you know and
1:03:49
knowing that you know the Garden of Eden will not be realized in my lifetime but
1:03:54
I absolutely can plant a tree right um like I go ah well you know yep that's
1:04:02
the context that's that's that's I mean that's going to be the environment around us and yeah you know we can just
1:04:09
get a little bit more coherence at least we've given somebody out there a chance to pick up that tradition and Carry It
1:04:16
Forward run another cycle and maybe do their offer their Improvement into the commons as
1:04:23
well even better if it's an agro Forest who you know has some fruits and what
1:04:29
and so on better be better be at this place at this rate I don't I mean
1:04:35
groceries this is very ironic to me like like of course in the post Pand the
1:04:41
pandemic like grocery store shelves ran pretty empty but in the
1:04:47
last year like a year ago like there started this trend I I I remember the
1:04:53
time when I could never see the back of any shelf ever in a grocery store like
1:04:58
it just was not a thing and since the pandemic that has definitely ended right
1:05:05
and there is if I go to look at every grocery store like it's just this thinnest veneer of like look there's
1:05:12
food here but you take that one out and there's no one behind it right and you
1:05:19
know and you find hey there's just there's just sometimes gaping holes that just don't get build for like long
1:05:27
periods of time so yes it better be an agro Forest you're damn right I'm gonna start my start my my
1:05:34
seccession with um with Moringa and see what happens you can you're growing
1:05:42
MinGa what are you saying um um no I got some seeds though yeah
1:05:50
okay with MinGa though you're saying uh oh yeah I'm definitely going to try and grow those I know
1:05:57
it seems too cold right now and
1:06:02
uh in the Netherlands but I got a feeling that's not GNA be that way
1:06:08
forever I just took my avocado trees down from the roof because it's GNA
1:06:13
start freezing in the I don't know it was supposed to be earlier this week but but it's uh it's coming and then it's
1:06:19
going to be like snowing all next week apparently but um
1:06:25
so yeah yeah by the time I don't know the really hits a fan I'm G to have like fruiting avocados but it's going to
1:06:31
be still a few years right I hope we have more time
1:06:38
Charles well for what what are you really saying just to
1:06:44
get run a little to run a few to run a few more Cycles like while while
1:06:50
while we while it's while I still have the option of going to the grocery store
1:06:56
while that's an option that exists I hope those trees get a little bit taller to Bear a little more fruit there you
1:07:03
go well thanks man I'm gonna go to bed I'll see you around hi Vibes take
1:07:09
care awesome my dude catch you soon