# EA debate invite
### Initial response
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I've little bandwidth for EA. The basic principle of EA sounds just fine: people devote resources according to their priorities. But getting into the weeds of their discourse is like asking me to mark a bad student paper for free w/no guarantee the student will learn anything.</p>— Ruth Starkman (@ruthstarkman) <a href="https://twitter.com/ruthstarkman/status/1530639037135921154?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I'm not against the Big Util, nor Mill, nor many manifestations of it, but EA is not related to the tradition of normative consequentialism and higher goods after Kant. No EAer would rather be Socrates.</p>— Ruth Starkman (@ruthstarkman) <a href="https://twitter.com/ruthstarkman/status/1530640207388631040?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
### Initial reaction
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Seems like a lot of strong claims being made about thousands of people who are actually quite diverse in beliefs? Probably worth noting that seeing people make statements like this makes me update pretty strongly against how likely *you* are to "learn anything" from discourse :P</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530642015242792960?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">To be clear, you don't have to care at all what a total stranger on the internet thinks. But if you're not aware that this is how your words might paint you to people like me, seemed worth saying so you can reflect on whether you are in fact OK with that perception of you.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530642311415095296?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
### First followup
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Rejecting a request to debate is a cornerstone of democracy, not a personal attack. Nothing about the "free exchange of ideas" compels one to respond to ideas of no interest, and to insist that one debate, or "look bad" is a non sequitur. Debate is only valid if voluntary.</p>— Ruth Starkman (@ruthstarkman) <a href="https://twitter.com/ruthstarkman/status/1530670447762649089?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I want to note again that I specifically mentioned "strong claims made about thousands of people," not whether you accept a debate request. That wasn't something I said, and it's not what my tweets were about. No one should feel compelled to do anything they don't want to.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530676980802195457?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I'm definitely not worried about that personally. Being true to myself comes before whatever other people think of me</p>— Talia Ringer 🌻🪬 (@TaliaRinger) <a href="https://twitter.com/TaliaRinger/status/1530667172648783873?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Fair enough; I can respect being willing to hurt feelings for what you believe in, as long as it's being done with full awareness. My comments were mostly aimed at Ruth, in any case.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530683706028961792?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I am still not up for normalizing these views, and priority for not doing that comes strongly above not hurting feelings</p>— Talia Ringer 🌻🪬 (@TaliaRinger) <a href="https://twitter.com/TaliaRinger/status/1530682753825398784?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Of course! But if I'd insulted someone's friends in a way they considered unfair, I'd like them to tell me I did in a prosocial way. Just trying to model that preference in case others share it; you do you.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530680756556603392?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Mr. Sasi you conflate attacking ideas with attacking people, then armed with pseudo-pro-social psycho-babble, suggest I am insulting "thousands" of your friends and require your level of "awareness," whatever that is. Let me say again: EA lacks merit, best to you + friends, enjoy</p>— Ruth Starkman (@ruthstarkman) <a href="https://twitter.com/ruthstarkman/status/1530692725028159488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 28, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">So you're either being disingenuous, or unaware of when you're insulting people instead of ideas:<br><br>"w/no guarantee the student will learn anything."<br><br>"No EAer would rather be Socrates."<br><br>I'll assume the latter, forgive the unintended insults, and hold onto my judgement. Good day.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530703128529555456?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It's an insult to refer to John Stuart Mill?🤔No EAer would rather be Socrates whose higher goods according to Mill contradict EA philosophy, nor would they be the student who wants that lesson. Happy to discuss Mill, liberty, free speech any time, these are ideas with merit.</p>— Ruth Starkman (@ruthstarkman) <a href="https://twitter.com/ruthstarkman/status/1530724022341599232?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A much more meaningful conversation in Silicon Valley? Shelve EA and AGI, and consider philosophy as KT did in dialogue with the relational communal ethics of the global south cf: <a href="https://twitter.com/Abebab?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@Abebab</a> Our students write GREAT work on such approaches to tech, so much more impactful globally.</p>— Ruth Starkman (@ruthstarkman) <a href="https://twitter.com/ruthstarkman/status/1530730504906977281?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">There are surveys of the EA community. *Overwhelmingly* consequentialist (no doubt utilitarian, although the survey doesn't specify).</p>— Émile P. Torres (@xriskology) <a href="https://twitter.com/xriskology/status/1530934630311989249?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
### Eowyn's reaction
_Earlier on the 29th..._
I see a tweet ([Damon's initial response](#Initial-response)) that says (to me) 'I cannot hear to someone criticising EA's ability to listen' and try to show that it looks Bad---a self-contained example of 'an EAer' refusing to listen to a critique _in response to a claim that they do not listen to critique_---without either publicly attacking a friend or publicly supporting something I can't condone [ie. context: I was trying to thread the needle reeeeeelly carefully here]
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">hm, does that mean I should update that you're unlikely to learn anything from Ruth if she does engage, and possibly that she's right in saying EA people are unlikely to learn anything from what she has to offer?</p>— Eowyn Dean【 in Oxford 】 (@dernhelm7) <a href="https://twitter.com/dernhelm7/status/1530863528600641536?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
### POV on Ruth
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">She started out with utter dismissal and uncharitability of thousands of people she's never met while making false claims about them, and denied this when pointed out. Even with good ideas to share, she properly signaled that she won't be a good teacher to people she disdains.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530933312952225792?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">And I'm sure she will repeat that she attacked ideas and not people, but since she appears to have 0 epistemic humility about how wrong she might be about either that or the ideas, her prediction was the best kind; self-fulfilling :) <br><br>As for the ideas themselves, let's see...</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530934093822586881?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">A lot of this comes from frustration of the disproportionate power of the EA crowd over decisions with immense societal consequences, plus the experience of years of calm argument only for one's ideas to be ignored by precisely that crowd, which then goes off and causes harm</p>— Talia Ringer 🌻🪬 (@TaliaRinger) <a href="https://twitter.com/TaliaRinger/status/1530934042949873664?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">At some point, the goal shifts to avoiding the normalization of harmful beliefs, much like many of us would choose to do for other belief systems we consider extreme and harmful. At that point, the EA crowd is simply not the target audience</p>— Talia Ringer 🌻🪬 (@TaliaRinger) <a href="https://twitter.com/TaliaRinger/status/1530934460346118144?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">happy Sunday morning to you too, Mr Sasi, why so certain of my character? Don't you have better things to do? Please share whatever epistemology you have of humility and we will all gladly hear. 😘😘</p>— Ruth Starkman (@ruthstarkman) <a href="https://twitter.com/ruthstarkman/status/1530935110228291584?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Good morning :) I'm fairly sure you're a lovely person in person, actually! But online I find your behavior antisocial, and I was invited back into this conversation, so I'm responding to them. Sorry your tweets are the ones being responded to, but that's the subject matter.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530935902721101826?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
**Go to thread branch:**
[POV response](#POV:-dismissive)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">How would you rate your own epistemic calibration in dismissing her as having no epistemic humility? It doesn’t appear that you verified what she believes and why, which leads me to wonder why you expect her to do so.</p>— Eowyn Dean【 in Oxford 】 (@dernhelm7) <a href="https://twitter.com/dernhelm7/status/1530946016953917447?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Fairly high, given the medium! She made something like a dozen tweets on this topic, all very confident, all wrong in some way, and as I explained, failed the snfif test. So I said:<br><br>"she appears to have 0 epistemic humility"<br><br>That "appears to have" is my epistemic humility ;)</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530949641767751680?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">And again, reactions to contra evidence;<br><br>If she apologized at this point, I would be *VERY* surprised, but happily so!<br><br>If she showed she's knowledgeable about the community, again I would be VERY surprised, and confused! It would be a sign that I have things to learn from her.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530951456244699136?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I don't know whether she's spared a thought about what she would feel if her assumptions are wrong. But just from appearances, it's not on her radar to track. The only curiosity has been this invitation on humility with (sarcastic?) emoji. I took it anyway, in case I'm wrong ;)</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530952607774015488?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
### Humility subthread
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">As for epistemic humility; confidence should always be calibrated. It's also a powerful social tool! Overconfidence is often rewarded, underconfidence rarely is. Given this, it's natural for people to tend toward being more confident than they should! This can bias calibration.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530937266503225345?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Sadly, internally confidence will always feel like it's justified, but externally it's fairly useless; people are just as confident on both sides of basically every major issue. So for communal discourse, starting from a point of high-confidence can pollutes the commons.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530938386940190727?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">To start with high confidence statements, without signaling openness to disagreement or discussion about why we might be wrong, is to signal a lack of curiosity in what others believe and why. It signals that we're looking to soapbox, not debate. Which is fine, if we're busy!</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530939380465930241?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">But it is less likely to invite thoughtful or complex discussion by the people who disagree AND are interested in nuanced conversation, because they're likely already used to hearing all the stuff shouted from soapboxes, and they found it unconvincing or missing the point.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530939847011016704?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This is why I like to test high confidence statements first with a mirror; does this person realize how absolutist they sound? Will they admit it and clarify? The more confident we are, the more a piece of incongruent data should confuse us.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530940744734633984?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">So "how do high-confidence people react when the possibility of overconfidence is brought up" is a powerful social signal too; it indicates not just value of debating them, but deeper questions of what they think they know and why they think they know it. Epistemic "sniff test."</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530941517300236289?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">What's worse is being very confident about things we can't reasonably know without deep investigation. This makes confident statements about people's thoughts, feelings, beliefs, very dangerous, let alone confident statements about whole groups of people's! (It's also rude, imo)</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530943411645165568?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Even therapists who have spent a hundred hours with a client try very very very hard not to assume we know what someone thinks and feels and believes. Imagine, doing that to total strangers with high confidence! Seems like that would be an embarrassing thing to be wrong about.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530944069626494977?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">So to respond to "That seems like an overbroad generalization" with something besides recognition or apology... well, that says a lot about the confident person's epistemics. The speaker got faced with a signal that there might be evidence against their belief, and rejected it.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530945288612958209?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Ok, I can go on like this for a while but I think that covers a lot of the relevant bits for this situation. Thanks for inviting me to speak on it, happy to debate any points I might be wrong about :)</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530945573838147585?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
### POV: dismissive
Response to [POV on Ruth](#POV-on-Ruth)
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">For them/us, we/they (as in EA) are the attacking side which started the aggression by being silent&dismissive, so that's why they don't want to talk</p>— Sergia ☮️💜🏳️🌈🇺🇦🌻 (@sergia_ch) <a href="https://twitter.com/sergia_ch/status/1530941766584631297?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Appreciate what you're trying to do, Sergia, but would rather people own their behavior.<br><br>For the third time at least, I don't care if someone doesn't want to talk. That's their right.<br><br>But when comments *are* made, it does not shield them from criticism, especially if insulting.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530946857672708096?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">If someone gets invited to a room, looks around, decides they don't want to participate, and leaves, that is totally fine!<br><br>To first remark "nah these people are all bad students" is making a statement. It's not abstaining from the debate entirely; it's firing-over-the-shoulder.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530947441855410176?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">They can still leave after, of course! They can leave the room any time they want. But the insult will get talked about. It's a choice they made when they said it, then didn't apologize. It's a choice they remake each time they walk back in to respond to criticism of the insult.</p>— Damon Sasi (@DaystarEld) <a href="https://twitter.com/DaystarEld/status/1530947839085322240?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">May 29, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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