Bret Weinstein訪談摘要

Bret Weinstein: Why COVID-19 May Have Leaked from a Lab
影片來源：https://youtu.be/zQLF4DUSXGs

J - Joe Rogan
B - Bret Weinstein

• 影片發佈時間為2020/6/19
• 使用google翻譯機+自己部份校正
• 僅摘錄與關於病毒起源假設相關之討論
• 私認為，台灣之現況，不適合從Weinstein對於疫情控制的建議斷章取義，全面封鎖需要考量的事應交由公衛專業討論，Weinstein為演化生物學家，對此議題無專業知識。
• 現今的病毒傳播能力顯然已比20年6月拍攝本採訪時高出許多。

並不只是巧合？

[1:59]

initially I thought that this was a bat borne virus that had been transmitted to people from the wild that probably through the bushmeat trade, probably through the seafood market in Wuhan
我最初認為這是一種蝙蝠傳播的病毒，可能通過野生動物肉類貿易，可能通過武漢的海鮮市場從野外傳播給人們

[2:36]

people tweeted back at me, 'so you think it's just a coincidence that there's a biosafety lab level four in Wuhan where this started?'
and I thought, 'what? that's a heck of a coincidence.'
很快有人就回覆，「所以你認為武漢有一個四級生物安全實驗室是巧合嗎？」
我想，「什麼？這也太湊巧了吧。」

[3:18]

because as much as we have been assured by a huge range of experts that this has to have been a bat borne corona virus transmitted to people, possibly through pangolins, maybe through some intermediate host that we don't yet know
that story looks less and less likely
and the story that is looking more and more likely
what I would call 'the lab leak hypothesis' is looking ever stronger
因為儘管大量專家向我們保證，這一定是一種蝙蝠傳播的冠狀病毒傳播給人類，可能通過穿山甲，也可能通過一些我們尚不知道的中間宿主
這講法我越看越覺不可信
而另一個想法則越來越具有說服力
我稱之「實驗室洩漏假說」，其可能性越來越大

[3:48]

it is possible that this came from the wild without human meddling
but the virus itself has several components that suggest that it is actually the result of manipulation in the lab
and we may be dealing with consequences of the fact that it was manipulated in a lab
so one of the techniques that labs who study viruses like this they use is something so the research is called 'gain-of-function' research
這可能來自野外，沒有人為干預
但病毒本身有幾個組成，表明它實際上是實驗室操作的結果
我們可能正在面對實驗室操縱的後果
研究此類病毒的實驗室，使用的其中一項技術，被稱為「功能增強」研究

功能增強 Gain-of-Function

[4:43]

gain-of-function research means, you are taking a virus and you are adding a capacity to it in order to study how it works
and then one of the things that is done to study how it works is something called 'passaging', where a creature is infected with the virus and then the virus is allowed to pass between individuals of that species
it can also be done in tissues and cellular tissues, where the tissues are infected and the virus is allowed to spread from one cell to the next
and what happens is evolution
so there is a strong possibility that this virus was under study that it was enhanced in the laboratory
and that we are dealing with consequences that are the result of that enhancement that make it more dangerous than it would otherwise be
功能增強研究的原理是，增幅研究中病毒的能力，以研究其運作原理
為了研究運作原理，會觀察所謂的「傳代」，讓一個生物感染病毒，然後允許該病毒在該物種的個體之間傳播
它也可以在組織和細胞組織中進行，組織被感染，病毒可以從一個細胞傳播到另一個細胞
於是進化發生了
所以這種病毒很有可能正被研究，並在實驗室中得到了增強
而我們正在面對因增強而導致的後果，這些增強也使得後果更加惡化

弗林蛋白酶 Furin cleavage site

[5:39]

well, so, one of the enhancements,
there is a something called 'a Furin site' in the genome of this virus
Furin sites are not known, it doesn't mean they don't exist, but they're not known from other beta corona viruses
and this Furin site is conspicuous
its conspicuous in that it is, in the genome is an insert rather than mutations of nucleotides that were there
it's like somebody spliced it in
那麼，其中一項增強功能，
這種病毒的基因組中有一個叫做「弗林蛋白酶」的東西
此類病毒中從未發現過弗林蛋白酶，這並不意味著它們不存在，總之其他β冠狀病毒中沒出現過
但這次這個弗林蛋白酶相當奇特
它之所以奇特，因為它是被插入基因組中，而不是核苷酸的突變
就像有人刻意把它拼接起來

[6:12]

and it has a flanking sequence which has -this is probably gonna be hard for people to follow, but- nucleotides that is DNA code for proteins which are made out of amino acids
there's an amino acid called arginine
and there are two arginines coded for in the genome of this virus
but, because there are so many possible codes, triplet codes, and only 20 or so amino acids, there's redundancy
and so, which code is used to trigger the production of, or the inclusion of an arginine, is variable
and the two arginines are coded for in a way that is not seen in nature in this way very frequently
so let's just say, there are elements of the genome that are conspicuous and suggest possible laboratory manipulation
它有一個側翼序列 - 這對人們來說可能很難理解，但是 -
核苷酸(nucleotides)是由組成氨基酸(amino acids)的蛋白質DNA編碼
有一種氨基酸叫做精氨酸(arginine)
這種病毒的基因組合由兩個精氨酸負責
但，有很多可能的編碼、三聯體編碼等，來自僅20個左右的氨基酸，這之中有許多不必要的編碼組合
因此，哪些編碼用於產生、或在產生中包含精氨酸，是可變的
而這兩個精氨酸的編碼方式在自然界中很少見
所以可以說，基因組合的某些部份很可疑，顯示可能來自於實驗室的人為操作

[7:05]

the Furin site that I refer to that has been inserted either by a natural process or a by a laboratory process GREATLY increases the transmissibility of this virus
which means various things
it could be the explanation for why this virus is infecting so many different tissues in people who get sick
right? the list of symptoms is huge here
and that's a very troubling thing from the point of view of treating it medically
all of the things that can go wrong with the body once you're infected
it also means that the virus is very good at jumping between people
and that high transmissibility is obviously one of the things that makes Covid-19 such a difficult pandemic to control, right?
it's hopping between people so readily that it just runs away
我所指的，可能自然產生或實驗室過程插入的弗林蛋白酶，極大地增加了這種病毒的傳播能力
這意味著各種可能性
這可能解釋了為什麼這種病毒會感染許多不同身體組織，對吧？
目前所知，它引發了很多種症狀
從醫療的角度來看，這是一件非常令人不安的事情
一旦你被感染，身體可能出現各式各樣的問題
高傳播力也意味著病毒非常擅長在人與人之間跳躍
高傳染性顯然是使 Covid-19 成為如此難以控制的流行病的原因之一，對吧？
它在人與人之間傳來傳去，以至於它脫出可控的範圍

若來源為蝙蝠，為何病毒在戶外(=野外)幾乎無傳染性？

[8:27]

evolution in the lab takes place and changes that the people in charge want to happen? occur? and then things they're not even thinking about occur
there's adaptation to the laboratory at the environment the people who work in labs are unaware of
and so one of the questions I have, is this virus is highly transmissible
unless you're outdoors then it seems almost not transmissible
that's a very conspicuous
I mean for one thing bats live outdoors, right?
病毒在實驗室中產生進化，因為負責人想要讓這件事發生？然而實際發生的事出乎這些人的預料
病毒在實驗室中產生某種適應能力，未被人員所察及
所以我想問，這種具有高度傳染性的病毒，一來到戶外，就幾乎不會傳播
這是一個非常弔詭的地方
畢竟蝙蝠是生活在野外的動物，對吧？

維生素D似乎具有保護作用

[8:58]

so is it possible that this virus has adapted to the laboratory environment, an indoor environment
and that it has forgotten how to get transmitted outdoors
and if we are casual about the outdoor environment that actually it could relearn that trick
we need to be outdoors for various reasons
one, it appears that vitamin D is very protective in the case of covid-19 prevents the transmission and you end up way less sick if you have proper vitamin D so in the northern hemisphere here while the sun is shining we should be outdoors we should not be locking down those environments at all
那麼，有沒有可能代表，這個病毒已經適應了室內環境，也就是實驗室環境
卻忘記了如何在戶外傳播
如果我們對戶外對它掉以輕心，它會再度學習戶外傳播的技巧
但是、出於各種原因，我們仍需要待在戶外
一，維生素 D 似乎具有很強的保護作用，可防止病毒傳播，如果你平常有攝取適當的維生素D，那麼你受感染後的症狀會因此減輕，所以在北半球陽光明媚的時候我們應該待在戶外，我們根本不該封鎖這些戶外場地

戶外活動的風險

[9:36]

we should also be very careful outdoors, right?
because anytime we allow it to be transmitted outdoors that is going to- that creates a evolutionary signal, a selective signal that's going to retrain the virus to be transmitted outdoors
which is not something we want at the moment
this might be an advantage that we have
and we're gonna lose it if we're not careful
但我們在戶外時也應該非常小心，對吧？
一旦我們允許它在戶外傳播，這會產生一個進化信號，一個選擇性信號，將重新訓練病毒在戶外傳播
這不是我們目前想要的發展
病毒不擅於戶外傳播這點，這目前可能還是我們的優勢
但若不小心，我們就會失去這個優勢

病毒的進化跳過了某個階段

[12:34]

even China now it admits that it wasn't from the seafood market
甚至中國現在也承認它不是來自海鮮市場

there are one of the things that is in my opinion the strongest piece of evidence that the lab leak hypothesis may be correct, is that, there is a missing phase in the evolution of this virus
在我看來，實驗室洩漏假設可能正確的最有力的證據之一是，這種病毒的進化過程中存在一個缺失的階段

[13:18]

when a virus jumps from one species to another
it is not well positioned
it is typically very poor at its job
because it doesn't have any evolutionary experience with that host
so it's not good at leaping between that host cells
which means that it's always in very small numbers
and it's not good at leaping from one individual to the next
that's the key question
當病毒從一個物種跳到另一個物種時
它最初會處於非常不利的狀態
它的能力會變得很差
因為它過去的演化經驗並不是針對新的宿主
所以它不擅長在新宿主的細胞之間跳躍
這意味著它的總量會一直很少，也不擅長從一個人跳到另一個人身上
這個問題很關鍵

[13:42]

when something leaps into a new species and then it becomes a pandemic
it's because it has solved that second problem
it has figured out how to infect that creature in such a way that the creature spreads it to others of its kind
there is no evidence in the case of this virus that that happened
it showed up in Wuhan and spread immediately
it became pandemic
it already had experience
若某個病原躍入新物種並造成大流行病，原因就是，它解決了第二個問題
它已經明白如何感染該生物，並使該生物傳播給其他同類
而現在這個病毒，沒有證據顯示，它如何解決人傳人之前的適應期，
它出現在武漢並立即傳播開來，躍升為流行病，代表它早已適應了人類

[14:08]

now how it got that experience we don't know
there are evolutionary ways this could have happened, right?
it could be that we have not found the initial population that it's circulated in, right?
or it could be that it circulated in a creature that we haven't found either
but the fact that there is no evidence that it shows up in Wuhan and immediately spreads, tells us that this virus was well adapted to our cells
and well adapted to transmit between individuals
and that is conspicuous
現在我們不知道它是如何獲得這種經驗的，它必定是透過進化得到這些傳播能力，對吧？
可能是我們沒有找到它傳播的初始人口，對吧？
或者它可能在一種我們也沒有發現的生物中傳播
但沒有證據表明它透過進化得到這種傳播力，
事實是，它出現在武漢並立即傳播，這告訴我們，病毒已經適應了我們的細胞，且非常適合在個人之間傳播，這點也相當可疑

[14:44]

one way you could get there, is if somebody a had added components to a virus in order to make it transmissible to humans
so the research in question would be research that was interested in discovering what a pandemic in humans of a bat borne coronavirus would be like
so that we could do something about it
maybe we could prevent it
maybe we could create a vaccine ahead of time
but, if you're creating a virus that has enhanced capacity to infect humans in order to study what will happen if a virus ever escapes into the human population then you are running the risk that the virus you are studying will escape
一種解釋的說法是，如果有人在病毒中添加某些成分，使其可以傳播給人類
因此，這項的研究應該旨在發現、蝙蝠傳播的冠狀病毒在會如何在人類中造成大流行
透過研究過程，知道我們可以做點什麼，也許我們可以阻止大流行發生
也許我們可以提前研製出疫苗
但是，如果你正在創造一種具有增強感染人類能力的病毒，以研究如果病毒逃逸到人群中的後果，那麼你便冒著這個病毒逃逸的風險

[15:21]

would they have added something like a Furin site?
absolutely
it is established in the literature that the addition of a Furin site makes the virus much more transmissible in human tissue
so if you were going to study it
this would be high in your list of things to do
他們會添加一些像弗林蛋白酶的物質嗎？
一定的
文獻中已經顯示，添加弗林蛋白酶使病毒更容易在人體組織中傳播
所以如果你要研究它
這會是你優先考慮要做的步驟

[15:37]

you could also passage it through human tissue in order to effectively train it on the infectious pathway inside of people
which again, we might be suffering the downstream consequences of that
if it escaped the Wuhan Institute of biology
so these things have an amazing impact
你還可以將其通過人體組織，以便有效地在人體內的感染途徑對其進行訓練
所以說，我們可能正在遭受此項實驗帶來的後果
如果它逃離武漢生物研究所，會造成驚人的影響

追出病毒來源具有重要意義

and I hear a lot like 'what does it matter? it's with us now, we just have to deal with it'
which is nonsense
我聽到很多「有什麼關係？事情都發生了，我們只需要解決它 」的說法，
完全是無稽之談。

[16:05]

because A) we need to have it never happen again
B) there may be things that we could understand about what its nature is
that would help us fight it
but, C) we have a really serious problem now
because all but a few of the world's leading virologists, the experts in coronaviruses in particular, have sworn that this must have come from nature and couldn't have come from the lab
which is nonsense
因為 A) 我們需要讓它不再發生
B) 我們可能會從某些線索中理解它的本質，這將幫助我們對付它
但是，C）我們現在有一個非常嚴重的問題，幾乎所有領先全球的病毒權威，尤其是冠狀病毒專家，都發誓這一定來自大自然，不可能來自實驗室
簡直不可置信

崩壞的學界體系

[16:32]

unfortunately this goes back to our earlier discussion
our scientific system is broken
we need our scientists to be empowered to tell us what we need to know
and we need them therefore to be freed from a system where they are fighting for grant money in order to continue their work
this entire group of people is now in jeopardy
because if this turns out to have been a leak from the lab then we are all suddenly going to become aware that gain-of-function research puts humanity in jeopardy
that one accident in gain-of-function research can cause the evaporation of who knows how many trillion dollars
不幸的是，這可以追溯到我們之前的討論
我們的科學體系已經崩壞
我們需要讓科學家有能力告訴我們，我們需要知道什麼
因此，我們需要讓他們擺脫為繼續工作而爭奪補助款項的系統
這整群人需要被懸崖勒馬
若證明實驗室洩漏假說屬實，那麼我們都會突然意識到，功能增強研究將置全人類於危難
功能增強研究的一件事故，可能會導致好幾兆美元的蒸發

不知道的代價

[17:22]

if we don't stamp it out
we don't know that people who have been infected are not going to continue to have outbreaks
we don't know whether or not people who've had it are going to be immune to it in the future
that's probable, but it's not certain
and we don't know that it's not going to become a permanent fellow trial of humanity the way flu is
and even if this thing evolved to become flu-like if it became as unserious as the flu
the flu is very serious
and the cost that humanity pays for having flu circulate every year is immense
如果我們不把它戳出來
我們不知道被感染的人不會再度爆發二次感染
我們不知道患過它的人將來是否會對它免疫
目前看來有此可能，但還是未知數
我們不知道它不會像流感一樣成為人類永久的試煉
即使這東西演變成類似流感那樣 如果它變得像流感一樣不嚴重──
其實流感是很嚴重的問題
人類每年因流感傳播付出的代價十分龐大

[18:03]

if we let it go and it evolved into another flu-like pathogen
then we have increased the number of flu-like pathogens that we have to deal with annually, substantially
and that would be a major loss to humans
如果我們收手，放它進化成另一種類似流感的病原體
那麼我們每年必須處理的流感病原體也將增加
這將是全人類的重大損失