# Archiving Audio Visual_Interview with Eline de Graaf at Het Nieuwe Instituut

Interview/Writer：Hsiang-Yun Huang
Part of the project[ Theory and Practice of Archiving Audiovisual Media Archives and Institutions in the Netherlands](https://archive.ncafroc.org.tw/result?id=445e1e36b2ea4a328bf0a229de4f4cf7) led by Ruby Hsieh I Hsuan


**Design by Marius Schwarz**

**Hsiang-Yun Huang：Could you introduce yourself and tell us about your role in the Open Archive project at the Nieuwe Instituut?**

Eline de Graaf：My name is Eline de Graaf and I have been the curator of collections at the Nieuwe Instituut for about five years. In 2019, the first edition of open archive started and that was a collaboration between Sound and Vision and Nieuwe Instituut which was led by Brigitte Jansen and me. I also curated the exhibition ‘Open Archive’ at the institute.

**Hsiang-Yun Huang：What is the motivation and core concept behind the Open Archive Project?**  (Project Link:[https://www.openarchief.com/](https://www.openarchief.com/) )

Eline de Graaf：The project started by Brigitte Jansen from Sound and Vision in 2019. Sound and Vision had a vision on how to connect makers to their archive and to their collection, and they found it interesting to also use collections at Nieuwe Instituut and other institutions. The core of this project is how we can facilitate makers better in our collection and also to keep our collection more relevant and alive because otherwise it's just a collection behind closed doors. Through the Open Archive Project, we invite makers to create different and alternative narratives based on our collections.


Open Archive. Installation by Oana Clitan. Photo Johannes Schwartz.


Design by Marius Schwarz

**Hsiang-Yun Huang：This question is about the accessibility of archives. For example like I'm an artist but I'm not inside the open archive project, how can I engage in the archives?**

Eline de Graaf ：We have a search portal to search the collection, but it's actually only really accessible to people who already know what they want to research about a specific architect. He just types in the name and all the projects of that architect come up. But if an artist wants to search on everything that's made of stones or just wants to browse visually to our collection that's very difficult.

Within the Open archive project it was very easy for artists because we were their coaches. Like Sound and Vision in which they have their own archivist whose role is helping the artist to search the collections. So within the project, we helped them along and we explained how the search portal worked and we gave them access to different files and we sent materials to them.

We also noticed that we are just not accessible at all for people that just want to browse through a collection. Therefore, we are developing a story-based collection platform for people to “browse” the collection which will be finished at the end of this year. For instance, if you want to find everything in the archive about gender you can just type in gender and then all the different stories and archives come up.

**Hsiang-Yun Huang：Could you share with us the proccess of the Open Archive Project?**

Eline de Graaf：First, we announced the open call, and we were asking for specific requirements. The makers should have some experience in making an exhibition and in searching through archives because an archival collection is not an art collection. Via that open call we selected three artists based on their proposals and then when they were in the project we supported them to search and find what they needed in the collection.


Screenshot from open archive project official website ([https://www.openarchief.com/news/film-open-archief-2023](https://www.openarchief.com/news/film-open-archief-2023))

**Hsiang-Yun Huang：Do you have some design in your collection platform which is specifically for artistic purposes? For example, in a physical library we could walk around and sometimes find something unexpected or a little bit relevant but not completely connected to the initial search. I posed this question because I think the possibility of searching “randomly” is important for creatively reuse in the archive.**

Eline de Graaf：We have one extensive cloud housing all our data, including everything from our collection registration system, which translates to the website. Users can browse through random data or search for specific tags or themes. We curate these themes, organizing related stories. But it is curated so there is a big difference than randomness for artistic purposes. So we have both random and curated parts, but we struggle with that because it is never neutral.

**Hsiang-Yun Huang: I agree that the archive is never neutral and from the very start, when the decision process in how an artwork should be selected or left out is already not neutral. I'm wondering if there are some projects related to the reflection on the power relations behind archives or decolonization of archives?**

Eline de Graaf：We are very much aware of the non-neutrality of the archive. We have an acquisition committee and we host the National Collection for Dutch architecture and urban planning. Setting up the categorization exclusively about architecture and urban planning is already not very neutral. Additionally, we have an acquisition policy so every time an architect or bureau wants to hand over their archive we have to discuss it with 12 people. We decide together whether or not we take it up in our collection. What we're trying to do is to tell the story of Dutch architecture urban planning from 1850 until the future and we have been telling that story very limited. We archived everything from one Bureau and it was almost always a white male and now we are filling in the gaps, for instance the project “collecting otherwise” which a is a group who are looking in our collection trying to fill in the gaps and making suggestions on maybe you should collect more female architects that we're missing but also they have a research project that was about decolonizing the archive.(Project Link: [https://nieuweinstituut.nl/en/projects/collecting-otherwise](https://nieuweinstituut.nl/en/projects/collecting-otherwise))

**Hsiang-Yun Huang: When the artists reuse the archive for artistic purposes, how do they and Nieuwe Instituut deal with the copyrights?**

Eline de Graaf：In our collection we try to make sure that the maker of the archive holder gives it to us freely so that we can use it in our research and exhibition. However, for creative reuse, it's another story because the archive needs to be in the public domain which means that the archive cannot be under copyright. This entails that the archive is 70 years old or older. That's also what we communicated in the open call and to the artists that were working with us that they are in fact quite limited in the archives that they could reuse because they had to be in the public.

If an artist wants to use something that's not in the public domain he or she has to do research and try to find the rightful owner and try to find the right to reuse it and if he cannot find the rightful owner anymore but he or she can show that you really tried to to search for them then you can reuse it.

One of the artists worked in the gray zone, but his philosophy is that all photographic materials are our heritage from the world, so why is it so difficult to access? He still uses the materials without solving all the copyright issues. He wants to open up the archive for everyone because he believed that that material belonged to everyone and I agree with him too. It's very hard to say that if you work in an institution and you're bound to all these rules, however, we also want to push the boundaries, working in the gray zones so that we can make the whole collection more accessible.

**Hsiang-Yun Huang: Exactly, we should promote the notion of copyleft more. For me, I think in some contexts the notion of copyright has become a form of neo-colonization as well. The next question is what is the collaboration model between other institutions?**

Eline de Graaf：In the Open Archive project, the first year was a collaboration between Het Nieuwe Instituut and Sound and Vision and the second year we asked for the International Institute of Social History because we wanted to have more diverse archival materials. We worked as a team in parallel and no one was the lead, and the exhibition was at Het Nieuwe Instituut, the public programs were held at the International Institute of Social History, Sound and Vision supplied the fee for the artists.

**Hsiang-Yun Huang: What is the infrastructure of the archive in terms of the resources and funding?**

Eline de Graaf：We are a national collection so we are supported by the government (Ministry of Education, Culture and Science) to have this collection so it's not art funding. We don't have private funds and that's why we have this task to collect the architecture and urban planning. Sometimes we ask for additional funds so for example with Open Archive we asked for additional funds from Pictoright, etc.

**Hsiang-Yun Huang: What challenges do you face regarding digital archives or what is your vision or future ideal digital archive?**

Eline de Graaf：The challenge is that we are way behind on giving it as much focus as we do with the physical archives. We sometimes forget that there is this very big digital archive as well, especially now with digital born materials. I think we are just not ready to really facilitate that in a very good way. We had only one digital archivist and six archivists for physical collection. I think that digital archiving and digital-born materials are the future, so I think that we have to make sure that we're ready to have a good and sustainable infrastructure. The other challenge is that the technology is just developing so fast so it's very hard to follow the rapid development.

**Hsiang-Yun Huang: If you can create an imaginary or ideal archive, what will it be like? What kind of design will be put in the archive system?**

Eline de Graaf：I would make sure that every single object that we have is digitized and that it's accessible for everyone also from their homes and I would make like an infrastructure that is so much easier to browse through like Google search engine which means that if you can just search one word and you can find everything in the collection that is related to that. That's a very ideal world but I think accessibility and visibility are very important.

I think that the Open Archive Project is a very good first step. We only invite three artists per year and it is a project-based format but it would be very nice if the open archive format could be embedded in all kinds of different institutes. If we could implement a policy establishing a position like an archive coach within the organization that would be great. The archive coach could play the role of connecting between the artists and the archive. This person could tell the artists where to find relevant materials and what they can use and reuse, and also help with legal questions. I'm very hopeful that there is going to be this position in the future.