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title: 翻譯共筆：龐培歐稱台灣未曾是中國的一部分

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title: 翻譯共筆：龐培歐稱台灣未曾是中國的一部分
image: https://i.imgur.com/z1cYgQb.png
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# 翻譯共筆：龐培歐稱台灣未曾是中國的一部分

[原文網址](https://www.state.gov/secretary-michael-r-pompeo-with-hugh-hewitt-of-the-hugh-hewitt-show-7/)

2020年5月28日，龐培歐於受訪時稱台灣未曾是中國的一部分。

本翻譯由Google translate生成。歡迎大家一起動手修正為信達雅的翻譯，成果將以CC0授權釋出。

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## 貢獻者

* 雨蒼

## 全文翻譯

Secretary Michael R. Pompeo With Hugh Hewitt of The Hugh Hewitt Show

休·休伊特（Hugh Hewitt）秀的休·休伊特（Hugh Hewitt）訪談國務卿Michael R. Pompeo

INTERVIEW

訪談

MICHAEL R. POMPEO, SECRETARY OF STATE

邁克爾·R·龐培，國務卿

NOVEMBER 12, 2020

2020年11月12日

QUESTION:  Mr. Secretary, good morning.  Great to have you.

問題：國務卿先生，早安。很高興有你。

SECRETARY POMPEO:  Hey, good morning, Hugh.  Good to be on the show with you.

龐培歐國務卿：嘿，早安，休。很高興與您一起演出。

QUESTION:  I am not going to waste time speculating whether, like James II throwing the Great Seal of the United States into the Thames, you are going to throw the Great Seal of the United States into the Potomac.  I want to talk about serious stuff.

問題：我不會浪費時間去猜測是否像詹姆斯二世將國璽扔進泰晤士河一樣，是否打算將美國國璽扔進波托馬克。我想談一談嚴肅的東西。

Chuck Schumer’s measured more drapes for more offices that are in his basement than anyone else, but a lot of people are measuring drapes for your office.  Some of them are talking about returning to the JCPOA.  Now, this is nuts.  The wake that – for that ill-fated deal has become a watch party for the ghost of it.  Will you oppose, as long as you are Secretary of State and long into the future, normalizing the Iranian regime?

查克·舒默（Chuck Schumer）在他的地下室中為更多辦公室測量了更多的窗簾，但是很多人在為您的辦公室測量窗簾。他們中的一些人正在談論重返JCPOA。現在，這很瘋狂。隨之而來的是-由於那筆不吉利的交易，成為了對其幽靈的守望派對。只要您是國務卿並在很長的將來，您是否會反對使伊朗政權正常化？

SECRETARY POMPEO:  Of course.  The right time to normalize with Iran is when the regime complies with the basic set of rules and behaviors that we expect of every nation.  Today, they continue to build out their missile program, to extend their capacity to wreak terror across the world.  They continue to behave in ways that are inconsistent with the commitments even that they made under the JCPOA itself, as crazy as that was.  This is a theocracy, a kleptocracy.  They have destroyed so much wealth and basic prosperity for the Iranian people themselves who we have supported for four years now.  This is – it’s a crazy idea to think that you’re going to get back into a deal that permitted a clean pathway for the Iranians to have a nuclear weapon by which they could terrorize the entire world.

龐培歐國務卿：當然。與伊朗正常化的正確時機是該政權符合我們期望每個國家的基本規則和行為。今天，他們繼續發展其導彈計劃，以擴大其在世界範圍內製造恐怖的能力。他們繼續表現出與承諾不符的方式，即使他們是根據JCPOA本身做出的，也是如此瘋狂。這是神權政治，是竊賊統治。他們為我們已經支持了四年的伊朗人民本身摧毀瞭如此多的財富和基本的繁榮。這是–認為您將重新達成一項協議，這為伊朗人提供了一條清潔途徑，使他們擁有可以威脅整個世界的核武器的瘋狂想法。

QUESTION:  So many people who have spent four years demonizing President Trump – and a lot of that demonizing you – will not say a bad word against the Iranian regime.  Now, I know you think about international relations a lot.  What is that?  Why can they not come to grips?  Have you thought about what it is in the American psyche on the left that will not let them denounce a cruel, barbaric regime?

問題：這麼多花了四年妖魔化川普總統的人-其中很多妖魔化了你-不會對伊朗政權說不好的話。現在，我知道您對國際關係的思考很多。那是什麼？他們為什麼不能抓緊時間？您是否考慮過美國左派人士的心理是什麼會讓他們譴責殘酷，野蠻的政權？

SECRETARY POMPEO:  One might add anti-Semitic and one that continues to put at risk the basic understandings that we’ve built out over four years throughout the Middle East.  No, I can’t comprehend it.  I couldn’t comprehend it when the Obama-Biden administration before went for the JCPOA and made Iran the linchpin of their foreign policy in the Middle East.  But going back to it would just be crazy.  Look, we’ve built that.  We’ve put sanctions on them, we’ve made it more difficult for them to expand their terror regime, we’ve made clear they’re not going to get a nuclear weapon.  It’s simply not going to be possible for them, putting deterrents back in place.

龐培歐國務卿：一個可能會增加反尤太主義，而另一個則繼續使我們在整個中東地區四年來積累的基本諒解處於危險之中。不，我聽不懂。當歐巴馬－拜登政府加入JCPOA並使伊朗成為其中東外交政策的關鍵時，我無法理解。但是回到它將會是瘋狂的。看，我們已經建立好了。我們對他們實行製裁，使他們擴大恐怖政權更加困難，我們明確表明他們不會獲得核武器。對於他們來說，這簡直是不可能的，將威懾力量放回原處。

And then we built out a set of strategic alliances throughout the Middle East that resulted in a number of good things, including of course the Abraham Accords where we now have, for the first time in over two and a half decades, nations recognizing the simple fact that Israel has the right to exist.

然後，我們在整個中東建立了一系列戰略聯盟，帶來了許多好處，當然包括《亞伯拉罕協議》。在過去的二十五年半裡，我們現在第一次擁有了承認簡單的國家。以色列有權存在的事實。

So no, I can’t come up with a rationale.  I remember, Hugh, the debate.  It was either – it’s either the JCPOA or war.  That’s what – that was the mantra for two and a half years of the Obama-Biden administration.  Well, there’s no JCPOA and you can see that the Middle East is a more stable place today than it was when President Trump took office.

所以不，我無法提出理由。我記得休，辯論。是-JCPOA還是戰爭。就是這樣-這就是歐巴馬－拜登政府兩年半以來的口頭禪。好吧，沒有JCPOA，您可以看到，今天的中東比特朗普總統就職時更加穩定。

QUESTION:  Are the Abraham Accords, Mr. Secretary, going to thrive, not just for four years but for four decades and beyond?

問題：國務卿先生，《亞伯拉罕協議》能否蓬勃發展，不僅要持續四年，還要持續四年甚至更長時間？

SECRETARY POMPEO:  What fundamentally shifted is by President Trump making a few simple decisions based on his belief in conservative realism – right? – Jerusalem is in fact the capital of Israel, Golan Heights in fact are inside of that country, it’s not illegal per se for every settlement to be established, those basic understandings along with a commitment that says to the Gulf states you are better off with a foreign policy that recognizes Israel – that is the direction of travel for humanity.  It’s the direction of travel in the Middle East.

龐培歐國務卿：川普總統基於對保守現實主義的信念做出了一些簡單的決定，從根本上改變了–是嗎？ –耶路撒冷實際上是以色列的首都，戈蘭高地實際上在該國之內，建立每個屯墾區本身都不是非法的，這些基本理解以及對海灣國家的承諾說，你過得更好承認以色列的外交政策-這是人類旅行的方向。這是中東旅行的方向。

And President Trump took away this notion that absent solving the Israel-Palestinian problem, you can’t increase stability, security, and prosperity in the Middle East.  That is now gone.  No one can possibly believe that anymore.  And I think that’s deeply connected to the pressure that we’ve put on Iran.  If you undermine that pressure, if you undermine the confidence that the Gulf states have that the United States will be a partner for peace in the Middle East, we are in for a very difficult, long time.

川普總統摒棄了這樣的觀念，即如果不解決以巴問題，就無法增加中東的穩定，安全與繁榮。現在不見了。沒有人可能再相信這一點。我認為這與我們對伊朗施加的壓力密切相關。如果您破壞了這種壓力，或者破壞了對海灣國家對美國將成為中東和平夥伴的信心，那麼我們將處於一個非常困難的漫長時期。

QUESTION:  Now, Mr. Secretary, I want to turn to the Chinese Communist Party and to the conservative realism about it that you and President Trump have articulated and defended.  Do we expect, short term, more sanctions in December and January on entities like Huawei?

問題：國務卿先生，現在，我想談談中國共產黨以及您和川普總統已明確表達和捍衛的保守現實主義。我們短期內是否期望在12月和1月對華為等實體實施更多製裁？

SECRETARY POMPEO:  So I don’t want to get out in front of what decisions the President will make, but make no mistake about the work that we’re doing to counter the threat from the Chinese Communist Party continues.  So there’s still a fair amount of work to do.  The State Department’s got work to do.  Treasury’s still got some things that they’re going to do.  And I’m confident the White House will have decisions that it will make as well, each of which will be designed to continue the effort that is historic, that the President took on this recognition that bending a knee, appeasing China, giving them an exception to every international ruleset puts American jobs and prosperity at risk.  It started with trade.  It moved to telecommunications and infrastructure, for example, with Huawei and with ZTE.

龐培歐國務卿：因此，我不想在總統將做出什麼樣的決定前走出來，但對於我們為應對中國共產黨的威脅所做的工作沒有錯。因此，仍有大量工作要做。國務院有工作要做。財政部仍有一些事情要做。我相信白宮也會做出同樣的決定，每一項決定的目的都是繼續進行歷史性的努力，總統已經意識到，屈膝，使中國安逸，給予他們每個國際規則集的例外都會使美國的工作和繁榮面臨風險。它始於貿易。例如，它與華為和中興一起轉移到電信和基礎設施領域。

The work we’ve done to build out this central idea that if American information is going to flow across some telecommunications infrastructure, we ought to know who’s touching it, and the persons touching it can’t be part of the Chinese military apparatus.  We call it the Clean Network.  We’ve got now 50 countries – 50 countries, Hugh, nobody gives us any credit for working with partners around the world – 50 countries that have now signed up to say yeah, we agree, you’re right, you got it America, we don’t want to have Chinese infrastructure inside of our telecommunications systems.  These are the kinds of things that we have achieved to date and we’re going to continue to do it so long as the people of the United States give us the license and the capacity and power to do it.

我們為建立這一中心思想所做的工作是，如果美國信息要流經某些電信基礎設施，我們應該知道是誰在觸摸它，而觸摸它的人也不能成為中國軍事機構的一部分。我們稱其為清潔網絡。我們現在有50個國家/地區，其中有50個國家/地區，休，沒有人能與世界各地的合作夥伴打交道。我們已經簽署了50個國家/地區的協議，是的，我們同意，你是對的，你得到了美國，我們不想在我們的電信系統中擁有中國基礎設施。到目前為止，這些都是我們已經取得的成就，只要美國人民給予我們許可證以及執行這項任務的能力和權力，我們將繼續這樣做。

QUESTION:  Mr. Secretary, when I interviewed you at Langley and you were the director at the agency, and when I interviewed you at Foggy Bottom and you were the Secretary of State, both occasions you said our commitments to Taiwan are clear and they will be maintained.  I know you talk to Democrats all the time.  Do you believe that is a bipartisan commitment that the CCP has to realize?  Because there is crazy talk among the most radical elements of the CCP that Taiwan ought to be retaken by force if necessary.

問題：國務卿先生，當我在蘭利採訪您時，您是該機構的主管，當我在福吉·貝托姆採訪您時，又當過國務卿時，您兩次都表示我們對台灣的承諾很明確，他們會保持。我知道您一直在與民主黨人交談。您是否認為這是中共必須實現的兩黨承諾？由於中共最激進分子之間存在瘋狂的談話，因此台灣在必要時應被武力奪回。

SECRETARY POMPEO:  Well, Hugh, remember, when we talk about – it’s always important to get the language right.  Taiwan has not been a part of China, and that was recognized with the work that the Reagan administration did to lay out the policies that the United States has adhered to now for three and a half decades, and done so under both administrations.  No, I actually think this is in fact bipartisan.  I think the central understandings that this is a model for democracy, that the people who live on Taiwan ought to be honored by having the Chinese live up to the commitments that they have made – I think this is something that both parties can agree to.

龐培歐國務卿：嗯，休，記住，當我們談論時–正確使用語言總是很重要的。台灣不是中國的一部分，雷根政府所做的工作就是承認台灣已經制定了美國已經遵守了三十年半的政策，並且在兩個政府中都這樣做了，這一點得到了承認。不，我實際上認為這實際上是兩黨的。我認為這樣的核心理解是民主的典範，在台灣生活的人們應該通過讓中國人信守他們已經作出的承諾而感到榮幸–我認為這是雙方都可以同意的。

And I hope that this will continue for as long as it’s the case that the Chinese and the Taiwanese can’t figure their way through this.  We ought to honor the commitments that have been made and we have a set of obligations.  You’ve seen our announcements with respect to weapon sales to Taiwan to assist in their defense capabilities.  All of these things are designed to live up to the promises that have been made between, frankly, China and the Taiwanese people.

我希望，只要中國人和台灣人無法確定自己的方式，這種情況將持續下去。我們應該兌現已經作出的承諾，並承擔一系列義務。您已經看到了有關向台灣出售武器以增強其防禦能力的公告。坦率地說，所有這些事情都是為了履行中國和台灣人民之間所作的承諾。

QUESTION:  Now, Mr. Secretary, the Blob, the foreign policy establishment, is forming up, and as I said, they’re measuring drapes everywhere.  I am wondering, though, do they see the penetration of even some of their institutions by CCP cash, and can the states’ attorney general carry on the work of finding out which institutions have been penetrated by CCP cash if that work fades for a time in D.C.?

問題：現在，外交政策機構Blob部長正在組織當中，正如我所說，他們正在各地測量窗簾。不過，我想知道，他們是否看到某些機構被中共現金滲透，如果這些工作暫時消失，各州的總檢察長能否繼續進行工作，以找出哪些機構被中共現金滲透在直流電？

SECRETARY POMPEO:  There’s a lot of work to be done, and your point, Hugh, is well taken.  I hope that it continues to be done at the national level.  There’s – the work that we’ve done to push back against the Confucius Institutes, against the United Front Department, the Chinese Communist Party’s essentially infiltration and effort to conduct influence operations here in the United States.  We’ve kicked out spies that were operating in Houston, we’ve made it more difficult for their propaganda arms to operate without registering as foreign agents here in the United States, all really important things.

龐培歐國務卿：有很多工作要做，休，你的觀點很正確。我希望它繼續在國家一級完成。我們已經開展了一些工作，以反對孔子學院，反對統一戰線，這實際上是中國共產黨在美國的滲透和開展影響力活動的努力。我們已經淘汰了在休士頓活動的間諜，這使他們的宣傳部門在沒有在美國這裡註冊為外國代理人的情況下更加難以開展活動，而這些都是非常重要的事情。

But yes, it is the case governors, city councilmen, school board leaders all across America need to understand that the Chinese Communist Party is coming for them in ways that they may not appreciate.  They need to understand those risks.  They need to identify where monies are flowing.  And they need to make sure that if there is money, that they understand where it came from, what its purpose was, and that they fully understand the costs connected to accepting that money from the Chinese Communist Party or one of its affiliates.

但是，是的，整個美國的州長，市議員，學校董事會領導人都需要了解，中國共產黨以他們可能不欣賞的方式為他們服務。他們需要了解這些風險。他們需要確定資金流向何處。他們需要確保如果有錢，他們了解錢的來源，目的是什麼，並充分了解與接受中國共產黨或其附屬機構之一的錢有關的費用。

QUESTION:  Now, President Trump’s first term was defined at home by judicial appointments, and I think abroad by clarity about the CCP.  And President Reagan warned famously that there was a bear in the woods.  You and President Trump have been saying there is a dragon in the sky.  Does the Blob know that?

問題：現在，川普總統的第一個任期是在國內通過司法任命確定的，而我在國外對中共的了解是明確的。裡根總統著名地警告說，樹林裡有隻熊。您和川普總統一直在說天上有一條龍。 Blob知道嗎？

SECRETARY POMPEO:  It’s getting closer, Hugh.  There’s still – there are still skeptics, there are still those that want to trade some little bit of business, some perceived market in exchange for American national security.  They haven’t accepted the responsibility that comes with leadership to recognize that there may be short-term costs, there may be businesses that can no longer operate inside of China because of the risks attendant thereto.

龐培歐國務卿：越來越近了，休。仍然存在–仍然有懷疑者，仍然有一些人想交易一點點業務，一些想交易的市場以換取美國國家安全。他們沒有接受領導層附帶的責任，即意識到可能存在短期成本，有的企業可能會因為存在相應的風險而無法在中國境內開展業務。

It’s – there is, however, an awakening.  I talked about the tide turning and I see this all across the world.  For a long time, since the early 1970s, the world has refused to present the real face the Chinese Communist Party is, in fact, showing to the United States.  And I think we can see now in Europe, we can see it in Africa, we can certainly see it in Southeast Asia.  These countries have come to recognize the threat that the Chinese Communist Party poses to their nations.  And I think it’s increasingly the case that the foreign policy establishment here in Washington is coming to accept what President Trump knew for an awfully long time, is that we have a responsibility to the American people to make sure they’re not continuing to rip us off, steal our stuff, and present a security risk to the United States of America.

是的，但是有一種覺醒。我談到了潮流的轉變，我在世界各地都看到了這一趨勢。自1970年代初期以來，很長一段時間以來，世界一直拒絕展示中國共產黨向美國展示的真實面孔。我想我們現在可以在歐洲看到，在非洲可以看到，在東南亞也可以看到。這些國家已經認識到中國共產黨對本國構成的威脅。我認為，華盛頓的外交政策機構越來越多地接受川普總統在很長一段時間內所知道的情況，這是我們對美國人民有責任確保他們不會繼續撕毀我們。離開，偷走我們的東西，並給美國帶來安全風險。

QUESTION:  Specific – religious liberty mattered a lot to you.  It didn’t matter in the Obama-Biden administration.  Do you believe future administrations will take up the cause, specifically the plight of the Uyghurs?  Do you think that is on the agenda for everyone now?

問題：具體–宗教自由對您很重要。在歐巴馬－拜登政府中沒關係。您是否相信未來的政府會承擔起這一責任，特別是維吾爾人的困境？您是否認為現在這是所有人的議程？

SECRETARY POMPEO:  It’s an imperative.  The irony is that it’s often Democrat administrations that are thought to be – think of human rights and the human condition as more important than some other things.  This administration and President Trump have taken this on very seriously.  Religious freedom has been a hallmark of something that the State Department had led on for four years.  We hold these big gatherings, the largest human rights gatherings ever at the State Department.  We call them “ministerials” where we bring religious leaders from all across the world here to the United States.  They’re really glorious gatherings.

龐培歐國務卿：這是當務之急。具有諷刺意味的是，人們通常認為民主黨政府對人權和人類狀況的重視比其他事情更為重要。本屆政府和川普總統對此非常重視。宗教自由一直是國務院領導的四年的標誌。我們舉行這些大型聚會，這是國務院有史以來最大的人權聚會。我們稱他們為「部長級」，將來自世界各地的宗教領袖帶到美國。他們真的是光榮的聚會。

And the plight of the Uyghurs, the plight of these people in western China where there are situations that look for all the world like what happened in the 1930s in Europe, these are the kinds of things that authoritarian regimes do to suppress opinion and to try and stamp out the very nature of the central condition of humanity.  I hope every administration and I hope every leader, whether they’re working in a nongovernmental organization or inside the United States Government or businesses that are contemplating doing business inside of China, are very careful.  We don’t want to do anything that would contribute to the Chinese Communist Party’s capacity to continue to undermine the central humanity of the individuals living there in western China.

維吾爾族的困境，中國西部這些人的困境，在某些情況下正像1930年代歐洲發生的事情一樣，正在全世界範圍內尋找，這些都是威權政權為壓制見解和嘗試而做的事情。並消除人類中心條件的本質。我希望每個政府和每個領導人，無論他們是在非政府組織中工作，還是在美國政府內部工作，或者正在考慮在中國境內開展業務的企業，都必須格外小心。我們不想做任何會影響中國共產黨繼續破壞居住在中國西部的人的中心人類的能力的事情。

QUESTION:  Two more questions, Mr. Secretary.  The so-called “pivot” of the Obama-Biden era was rhetoric; it wasn’t reality.  The Quad that you and the President put together is real.  Has that strengthened enough to endure as a super-structure for a generation or more that it is needed?

問題：秘書先生，還有兩個問題。歐巴馬－拜登時代的所謂「樞紐」是誇誇其談的。這不是現實。您和總統合在一起的四邊形是真實的。是否已經足夠堅固以承受上一代或更多需要的超結構？

SECRETARY POMPEO:  Yes, it has, and it has because the hard work that has been done not just by the United States, but the Australians, the Japanese, the Indians – we’ve all come to recognize that if we work together in the South China Sea, we work together in the Indian Ocean, we work in the ways that the four great democracies can continue to work, we will build out a set of common understandings that deliver increased security in the region for travel, navigation, all the things that the United States cares deeply about.

龐培歐國務卿：是的，而且是因為，不僅美國，澳大利亞人，日本人，印度人都付出了艱辛的努力–我們都認識到，如果我們在南中國海，我們在印度洋共同努力，我們以四個大民主國家可以繼續工作的方式開展工作，我們將建立一套共同的理解，從而為該地區的旅行，航行，所有美國所關心的事情。

QUESTION:  And then finally, you, Ambassador O’Brien, Ambassador Lighthizer, you’ve all credentialed scores, even hundreds of young national security professionals.  I expect Silicon Valley and other places to try and recruit them in.  Are you going to be able to connect them up and keep them in touch in the event that they scatter to the wind?

問題：最後，奧布萊恩大使，萊特海澤大使終於獲得了認證，甚至數百名年輕的國家安全專業人員。我希望矽谷和其他地方都可以招募他們。如果它們隨風飄揚，您是否能夠將它們連接起來並保持聯繫？

SECRETARY POMPEO:  Hugh, I’m confident that the ideas that President Trump has put forward, this – the central notion of realism inside of our constitutional founding, will continue.  And so I think all the team that has come together to deliver that increased security and prosperity for the American people will remain.  I don’t think this understanding of the world is going away.

龐培歐國務卿：休，我相信川普總統提出的想法將繼續下去，這是我們立憲之初的現實主義核心觀念。因此，我認為將團結在一起為美國人民帶來增強的安全和繁榮的所有團隊將繼續存在。我認為對世界的了解不會消失。

QUESTION:  Secretary Pompeo, thank you for joining me this morning.  Good luck to you and a Happy Thanksgiving if I don’t talk to you before then.

問題：龐培歐國務卿，謝謝您今天上午加入我的行列。祝您好運，如果我在那之前不與您交談，則祝您感恩節快樂。

SECRETARY POMPEO:  Thank you, Hugh.  So long.

龐培歐國務卿：謝謝，休。太長。
