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title: 翻譯共筆：「他們想帶我們觀光。但我待在飯店」第一位進入武漢的外國官員說

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title: 翻譯共筆：「他們想帶我們觀光。但我待在飯店」第一位進入武漢的外國官員說
image: https://i.imgur.com/qPno807.jpg
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# 「他們想帶我們觀光。但我待在飯店」第一位進入武漢的外國官員說

英國每日電訊報訪談了台灣第一位進入武漢的官員莊銀清，他談了第一次去武漢了解武漢肺炎的狀況。

本翻譯由Google translate生成。歡迎大家一起動手修正為信達雅的翻譯，成果將以CC0授權釋出。

[原文網址](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/wanted-take-us-sight-seeing-stayed-hotel-says-first-foreign/)

## 協作方式

請點選右上角筆狀符號即可進入編輯介面。

![](https://i.imgur.com/LnQxxZv.png)


## 貢獻者

* 雨蒼

## 全文翻譯

### 'They wanted to take us sightseeing. I stayed in the hotel', says first foreign official to enter Wuhan

### 「他們想帶我們觀光。但我待在飯店」第一位進入武漢的外國官員說

Exclusive interview with Taiwan's Yin-Ching Chuang, Regional Commander of the Infectious Diseases Prevention and Treatment Network

專訪台灣傳染病預防與控制網路區域指揮官莊銀清

Nicola Smith

尼古拉·史密斯

6 May 2020

2020年5月6日

![](https://i.imgur.com/qPno807.jpg)


Yin-Ching Chuang, Taiwan's Regional Commander of the Infectious Diseases Prevention and Treatment Network, is thought to be the first foreign official to have entered Wuhan when the crisis broke.  He talks exclusively to The Telegraph about what he saw there, revealing tensions between local officials in Wuhan and China's national government over the nature of the virus for the first time. Answers have been edited for space.

台灣的傳染病預防和治療網絡區域指揮官莊銀清被認為是危機爆發時第一位進入武漢的外國官員。他在《電訊報》上獨家談論了他在那看到的東西，這首次揭示了武漢地方官員與中國中央政府之間關於病毒性質的緊張關係。答案已被編輯為空格。

Why did you go to Wuhan?

你為什麼去武漢？

At the end of last year, we got information from social media about an atypical pneumonia in China. And other people got this kind of information. We have a lot of connections with doctors visiting there. The exchange between both sides of the [Taiwan] Strait is very open and frequent so we can hear some things from medical colleagues and we get information from social media..I [saw] information regarding the Wuhan city government trying to collect patients’ information. They required their hospitals and doctors to report all cases to the health authorities. That was on stamped paper. So our government and the CDC said we need to find out whether it is true or not.

去年年底，我們從社交媒體獲得了有關中國非典型肺炎的信息。其他人也得到了這類信息。我們與去那兒的醫生有很多聯繫。台灣海峽兩岸之間的交流非常頻繁和頻繁，因此我們可以聽到醫學界同事的一些信息，並從社交媒體獲得信息。.[我]看到了有關武漢市政府試圖收集患者信息的信息。他們要求其醫院和醫生向衛生當局報告所有病例。那是在郵票紙上。因此，我們的政府和疾病預防控制中心表示，我們需要找出它是否正確。

What did the paper say?

報紙怎麼說？

Everyone needs to collect how many cases there are of atypical pneumonia.

每個人都需要收集多少例非典型肺炎。

Can you remember the date on that?

你還記得那個日期嗎？

December 31.

12月31日。

Who gave you permission to go to Wuhan in January?

誰授予您一月份去武漢的許可？

China is an epicentre of emerging infectious disease, so when we hear something odd we always try to get the real information. As soon as we heard, especially after this city government publication, we formed a CDC task force. Everyone agreed we need to send our own experts to China to find the truth.

中國是新興傳染病的震中，因此，當我們聽到奇怪的聲音時，我們總是試圖獲得真實的信息。得知消息後，尤其是在市政府發布此消息後，我們成立了CDC工作組。每個人都同意，我們需要派遣自己的專家到中國來尋找真相。

The Taiwanese CDC made a request to the Chinese health authority on January 6.. I was notified on January 11. I remember that day very clearly because that was the Taiwan presidential election day. Around 6pm in the afternoon I got a phone call from the director general of the Taiwan CDC that we had permission to go to Wuhan. We flew there the next night for a meeting on January 13 and 14 morning and afternoon in Wuhan.

台灣疾病預防控制中心於1月6日向中國衛生當局提出了要求。我於1月11日收到通知。我記得這一天非常清楚，因為那是台灣總統選舉的日子。下午大約6點左右，我接到了台灣疾病預防控制中心主任打來的電話，我們獲准去武漢。我們第二天晚上飛往那裡，於1月13日和14日上午和下午在武漢開會。

Who did you meet?

你遇見誰了？

Wuhan city and Hubei province health authorities and also someone from the central government health authority in Beijing.

武漢市和湖北省衛生部門，還有北京中央政府衛生部門的人。

There were just two of us. As soon as we arrived, they told us we will have a meeting with the Chinese authorities together with representatives from Hong Kong and Macau. A total of ten experts.

我們只有兩個人。我們到達後，他們告訴我們，我們將與中國當局以及香港和澳門的代表舉行會議。共有十名專家。

Anyone from the US or the WHO?

來自美國或世界衛生組織的人嗎？

No.

沒有。

Were you the first foreign experts to go there?

您是第一個去那裡的外國專家嗎？

I’m not sure.

我不確定。

Were you taken to any hospitals?

您被送往醫院了嗎？

Yes, the second day of the meeting - the hospital that was designated to treat the atypical pneumonia cases at that time, Jin Yin Tan.

是的，會議的第二天-當時被指定為治療非典型肺炎病例的醫院金銀潭。

What did they show you?

他們向您展示了什麼？

During the [first] meeting they only presented the information orally, instead of using powerpoints, We could only listen and try to write it down. There were one or two powerpoints regarding the CT scans of the patients. There were ten or 20 CT scans in one powerpoint. That only showed us that they used CT scans to diagnose the patients.

在[第一次]會議期間，他們只以口頭形式介紹了信息，而不是使用Powerpoint，我們只能聽取並嘗試將其寫下來。關於患者的CT掃描有一兩個簡報。一個PowerPoint中進行了十或二十次CT掃描。那僅表明我們他們使用CT掃描來診斷患者。

What did they tell you?

他們告訴了你什麼？

They said that there were 41 cases at that time – 28 out of the 41 were associated with Huanan seafood market. When I was told I needed to go to Wuhan, I knew very clearly what was my responsibility [to find out]: the symptoms of the patient – Fever? Cough? How to diagnose it, treat it, what is the prognosis and whether there are any side effects? It’s etiology and whether it was coronavirus-like. And, most importantly, the mode of transmission. We were very eager to find out how in this case it is transmissible, how they get this disease? That was all I wanted to know. We tried to dig more and more about this. The visitors from Hong Kong, Taiwan, Macau asked a lot of questions.

他們說當時有41例，其中41例與華南海鮮市場有關。當被告知我需要去武漢時，我很清楚地知道我的職責是[找出]：患者的症狀–發燒？咳嗽？如何診斷，治療，預後如何以及是否有副作用？是病因，是否是冠狀病毒樣。而且，最重要的是傳輸方式。我們非常想知道在這種情況下它是如何傳播的，他們是如何患上這種疾病的？那就是我想知道的全部。我們試圖對此進行越來越多的挖掘。來自香港，台灣和澳門的遊客提出了很多問題。

Did you get answers?

你得到答案了嗎？

Of course, they tried to answer our questions but the answers were not that clear to me….whether there is human to human transmission? They did mention that there are two family clusters out of the 41 cases.

當然，他們試圖回答我們的問題，但答案對我而言並不那麼清楚……是否存在人與人之間的傳播？他們確實提到，在41宗案件中有兩個家庭群。

The first family cluster involved three family members but all three were associated with the Huanan seafood market – so no extra information from this cluster.

第一個家庭集群涉及三位家庭成員，但所有三位家庭成員均與華南海鮮市場有關，因此，該集群沒有其他信息。

The other family cluster was very important because it involved a husband and his wife. The husband worked in the Huanan seafood market but unfortunately his wife is somewhat disabled, so the possibility of her getting infected directly from this market was quite low.

另一個家庭集群非常重要，因為它涉及丈夫和妻子。丈夫在華南海鮮市場工作，但不幸的是他的妻子有些殘疾，因此直接從這個市場被感染的可能性很小。

That meant there were only two possibilities – she got the disease from her husband or the second possibility, she got the disease from something her husband brought back to the home. These were the only two possibilities so we tried very hard to ask more questions from different angles.

這意味著只有兩種可能性–她是從丈夫那裡得病的，或者第二種可能性是，她是從丈夫帶回家裡的東西得了病。這是僅有的兩種可能性，因此我們非常努力地從不同角度提出更多問題。

Initially the presenter, who was also the chairperson of the meeting, tried to deny human to human transmission but finally the person from the central government health authority said ‘why do give an old conclusion? Now the conclusion is that limited human to human transmission cannot be excluded.’ For me that was very important information.

最初也是會議主席的主持人試圖否認人與人之間的傳播，但最終來自中央政府衛生當局的人說：「為什麼給出舊結論？現在的結論是，不能排除有限的人與人之間的傳播。」對我來說，這是非常重要的信息。

I think he [Beijing official] was convinced at least that there was limited human to human transmission. That was my observation. He physically stopped him [the chairperson].

我認為他（北京官員）至少確信，人與人之間的傳播有限。那是我的觀察。他身體上阻止了他[主席]。

Did it seem as if the officials from Hubei and Wuhan were afraid to admit there was human to human transmission, or that they didn’t want to admit it?

似乎湖北和武漢的官員似乎害怕承認人與人之間存在著人際傳播，或者他們不想承認這一點？

It is very hard for me to answer this question. I don’t know what kind of information they had.

我很難回答這個問題。我不知道他們擁有什麼樣的信息。

When you heard the admission about human to human transmission what was going through your mind?

當您聽到有關人與人之間傳播的承認時，您的想法是什麼？

It was just common sense.

這只是常識。

What were you thinking about what happens next?

您在想什麼接下來會發生什麼？

My next reaction was how big? How many patients involved? How many cases right now?

我的下一個反應是多大？有多少患者參與？現在有幾例？

Did they give any indication?

他們有任何指示嗎？

I didn’t ask more than that. They already said that limited human to human transmission cannot be excluded but in my mind that means human to human transmission absolutely. I didn’t think there were only 41 cases based on my past experience.

我沒有問更多。他們已經說過，不能排除有限的人與人之間的傳播，但是在我看來，這絕對意味著人與人之間的傳播。根據我過去的經驗，我認為只有41個案例。

Do you think they believed there were only 41 cases?

您認為他們相信只有41例嗎？

I think some of them believed there were only 41 cases because if their responsibility is lower then their information is also very limited. But I thought the central government should have more control of the situation. But that’s my only guess. I don’t know their government situation, I have no comment on that.

我認為其中一些人認為只有41例，因為如果他們的責任較低，那麼他們的信息也非常有限。但是我認為中央政府應該對局勢有更多的控制權。但這是我唯一的猜測。我不知道他們的政府狀況，對此我無可奉告。

Did they give any indication about where the virus started? Did they know if it had started in the market or started anywhere else?

他們是否提供了有關病毒起源的任何跡象？他們是否知道它是在市場上開始還是在其他地方開始的？

The Hong Kong expert asked a lot of questions about game meat. The chairperson spent a lot of time saying people from Wuhan don’t like to eat game meat or wild animal and also said that they banned the Huanan seafood market on January 1 at midnight. Around the time they banned the seafood market, they said they found no game meat, no wild animals.

香港專家問了很多有關野味的問題。董事長花了很多時間說武漢人不喜歡吃野味肉或野生動物，還說他們於1月1日午夜禁止在華南海鮮市場。他們說，在禁止海鮮市場的那段時間裡，他們說沒有發現野味，也沒有野生動物。

Did they have another explanation?

他們還有其他解釋嗎？

No.

沒有。

They didn’t mention the lab?

他們沒有提到實驗室嗎？

No. We also tried to get information on the 13 [other] cases as that would be a very important admission to get. We tried to find out what happened to those 13 cases. If I was them I would try to make a list of the epidemiology before the onset of the disease - one or two weeks. What were they in contact with, where did they go? That’s very important information. It’s a kind of epidemiological survey. But there was no information at that time. They didn’t present anything more in this regard.

否。我們還嘗試獲取有關13個其他案例的信息，因為這將是非常重要的承認。我們試圖找出這13例案件發生了什麼。如果我是他們，我會在疾病發作之前（一到兩週）嘗試列出流行病學清單。他們接觸了什麼，他們去了哪裡？那是非常重要的信息。這是一種流行病學調查。但是當時沒有任何信息。他們在這方面沒有提出更多建議。

What did you find at the hospital the next day?

您第二天在醫院發現了什麼？

On the second day we met clinicians and medical staff to discuss patient information and treatment.

第二天，我們會見臨床醫生和醫務人員，討論患者信息和治療方法。

Were you given PPE?

您得到了個人防護裝備嗎？

No, we just went to the meeting room. We didn’t get into the so-called “dirty zone”, the patient area.

不，我們剛去會議室。我們沒有進入所謂的「臟區」，即患者區。

What did the doctors tell you?

醫生告訴你了什麼？

The medical staff were only there to answer general questions, like how do you treat the patient? Do you use steroids?

醫務人員只在那裡回答一般性問題，例如您如何對待患者？您是否使用類固醇？

Did they tell you anything about the disease, how it was transmitted or how widespread they thought it was?

他們是否告訴您有關該疾病的信息，其傳播方式或他們認為的傳播範圍？

No. They said only 41 cases, the symptoms are fever, cough. But it was the early stage.

不。他們說只有41例，症狀是發燒，咳嗽。但這是早期階段。

Were these 41 cases serious?

這41例嚴重嗎？

They didn’t say that but I guess at that time the cases were not easy for them to diagnose.

他們沒有這麼說，但我想當時他們很難診斷出這種情況。

But these 41 cases were all in the hospital?

但是這41例都在醫院嗎？

Yes. I think they counted only those cases admitted, not out-patients.

是。我認為他們只算入院的病人，不算門診病人。

These must have been serious cases if they were in hospital?

如果他們在醫院，這些一定是嚴重病例嗎？

Yes. Maybe only severe cases.

是。也許只有嚴重的情況。

Did the doctors sound worried or concerned about this new disease?

醫生聽起來是否擔心或擔心這種新疾病？

No. If you know the Chinese, I don’t think they express their own feelings.

不。如果您了解中國人，我認為他們不會表達自己的感受。

Scientifically or intellectually were they alarmed by what they saw?

從科學上還是知識上，他們是否對所看到的感到震驚？

I didn’t feel that. You know in medicine we say this kind of disease is very interesting. But they were kind of worrisome cases. Finally, at the very last stage I said that for this visit our purpose was trying to find out whether there was human to human transmission.

我沒有那種感覺。您知道在醫學上我們說這種疾病非常有趣。但是它們是令人擔憂的情況。最後，在最後一個階段，我說，這次訪問的目的是試圖確定是否存在人與人之間的傳播。

Did the doctors believe that human to human transmission was happening?

醫生是否相信人與人之間的傳播正在發生？

We didn’t ask the doctor in charge of patients whether it was human to human transmission. We really didn’t have time to allow us to speak one by one with individual doctors. We had a group discussion.

我們沒有問負責病人的醫生是否是人與人之間的傳播。我們真的沒有時間讓我們與個別醫生一對一地交談。我們進行了小組討論。

Were you given the access and information that you needed?

您是否獲得了所需的訪問權限和信息？

If I ask how many cases do you have? Do you think you can get an answer? That depends on what they want to tell you or not. I didn’t even ask those kind of questions.

如果我問您有幾例？您認為可以得到答案嗎？那取決於他們想告訴你什麼。我什至沒有問那種問題。

What did you learn from the hospital?

您從醫院學到了什麼？

I learned that this is a real bad situation. That it is not easy for them to admit a limited human to human transmission. For me there was absolutely human to human transmission.

我了解到這確實是一個糟糕的情況。他們不容易接受有限的人際傳播。對我來說，絕對是人與人之間的傳播。

Did the doctors’ information differ in any way from the health officials’ information?

醫生的信息是否與衛生官員的信息有所不同？

The medical doctors are also involved in public health so they might have two positions.

醫生還參與公共衛生，因此他們可能有兩個職位。

They were giving you the same message?

他們給你同樣的信息嗎？

Yes.

是。

How were they treating the patients?

他們如何治療患者？

They tried to give anti-virals. One kind of HIV drug. And they also used steroids.

他們試圖給予抗病毒藥。一種艾滋病毒藥物。他們還使用了類固醇。

Were any officials talking about having to quarantine Wuhan to stop the spread?

是否有任何官員在談論必須隔離武漢以阻止擴散？

No, no one said that. They only said that the Jin Yin Tan hospital had a so-called dirty zone. People were not allowed to go into it -  only medical staff. But we didn’t talk about quarantine.

不，沒有人這麼說。他們只說金銀灘醫院有一個所謂的髒區。不允許人員進入該區域-僅允許醫務人員進入。但是我們沒有談論隔離。

If there was a dirty zone that only medical staff were allowed inside, they must have assumed human to human transmission?

如果有一個僅允許醫務人員進入的骯髒區域，那他們一定是假定了人與人之間的傳播嗎？

Right, for me that’s common sense. I didn’t need to ask them did the patient get isolated? That’s for sure.

對，對我來說這是常識。我不需要問他們患者是否被隔離了？這是肯定的。

So they were already isolated and you were not allowed to see them?

因此它們已經被隔離了，您不被允許看到它們嗎？

Right.

對。

Did they say when they had had their first cases?

他們是說第一時間的情況嗎？

From the publication later on we know that they got the first case very early.

從後來的出版物中我們知道他們很早就收到了第一例。

On December 31, Hubei province and central government experts had a consultation in Wuhan. That means there was a case before that.

12月31日，湖北省和中央政府專家在武漢進行了磋商。那意味著在那之前有一個案例。

There was a case on December 23, 2019 – they said that during the oral presentation. This case was 61 years old and died on January 9. She had an abdominal tumour, liver cirrhosis, fever then later on shortness of breath and was transferred to hospital. Tests revealed a chest infection.

2019年12月23日有一個案例–他們在口頭陳述中說。該病例現年61歲，於1月9日死亡。她患有腹部腫瘤，肝硬化，發燒，隨後因呼吸急促而轉入醫院。測試顯示胸部感染。

What else did they say about the family cluster of the husband and wife?

他們還對夫妻的家庭狀況說些什麼？

We tried really hard to dig more but they said nothing.

我們真的很努力地挖掘更多，但他們什麼也沒說。

Did you have the feeling that you were at ground zero of a global pandemic? Or were you still unsure about what was happening?

您是否感到自己處於全球大流行的零地步？還是您不確定發生了什麼？

I always tried to stay in the hotel, other than meetings outside, because I didn’t know how dangerous it was outside the hotel. They tried to persuade us to go somewhere for sightseeing, but we always said no.

除了在外面開會之外，我總是試圖留在旅館裡，因為我不知道旅館外面有多危險。他們試圖說服我們去某個地方觀光，但是我們總是拒絕。

Are you surprised at how bad the pandemic has become?

您對這種流行病的嚴重程度感到驚訝嗎？

Yes, beyond my imagination.

是的，超出我的想像。

Back then your feeling was that this could be serious but not of this proportion?

那時您感覺這很嚴重，但不是這個比例嗎？

Yes, when I was there, of course I knew I should take it seriously but at that time no one was wearing masks, no one used alcohol spray.

是的，當我在那裡的時候，我當然知道我應該認真對待它，但是那時沒有人戴著口罩，沒有人使用酒精噴霧劑。

If this Beijing official was saying we can’t exclude human to human transmission, how much do you think the central government knew about this and how seriously were they taking it?

如果這位北京官員說我們不能排除人與人之間的傳播，您認為中央政府對此了解多少，他們對此有多認真？

I don’t know.

我不知道。

Was he from the department of health or the CDC?

他來自衛生部還是CDC？

The National Health Commission.

國家衛生委員會。

When you came back to Taiwan, what recommendations did you make?

回到台灣後，您提出了什麼建議？

As soon we landed, the CDC sent people to meet us at the airport to take us straight to the Director General because the next day morning he was going to report to his superior. Our government took it very seriously.

我們一著陸，疾病預防控制中心就派人去機場接我們，直接帶我們去總幹事，因為第二天早上他要向上司報告。我們的政府非常重視它。

What did you recommend? What were the key points that you communicated?

您有什麼建議？您傳達的重點是什麼？

We confirmed human to human transmission. I guess our superior already knew that. They just wanted to know if it was more concrete. They wanted us to confirm this.

我們確認了人與人之間的傳播。我想我們的上司已經知道了。他們只是想知道是否更具體。他們希望我們確認這一點。

How were your findings used in Taiwan?

您的發現如何在台灣使用？

The next morning we had an expert task force meeting and in the afternoon we had a press conference to release the information.

第二天早上，我們召開了專家工作組會議，下午我們舉行了新聞發布會，以發布信息。

Was this when you started to have tighter border controls?

這是您開始使用更嚴格的邊框控件時的意思嗎？

Taiwan’s CDC started the border control very early and after that they tried to make it stricter, step by step.

台灣疾病預防控制中心很早就開始了邊境管制，之後他們試圖逐步加強邊境管制。

In Taiwan the government did very well. After SARS we practiced and practiced very often for the next outbreak. You know before that we had H1N1, H5N7, H7N9, H5N1 and also a lot of infectious diseases. We also faced some true epidemics, but this is a very, very serious one.

在台灣，政府做得很好。 SARS爆發後，我們為下一次疫情進行了很多次練習。您之前知道我們患有H1N1，H5N7，H7N9，H5N1以及許多傳染病。我們還面臨著一些真正的流行病，但這是非常非常嚴重的一個。

At the end of the day we need an effective vaccine, we need effective drugs but before that the only thing we can do is face mask and hygiene, try to reduce mobility, mortality and infection rate. We need to change our lifestyle.

歸根結底，我們需要有效的疫苗，我們需要有效的藥物，但在此之前，我們唯一能做的就是戴口罩和衛生，並設法降低活動能力，死亡率和感染率。我們需要改變我們的生活方式。

Did the Chinese authorities give the impression that they were preparing for something bigger?

中國當局給人的印像是他們正在為更大的事情做準備嗎？

They said a phrase in Chinese…’when the spring comes and the flower is open’ after this outbreak we can have a meeting in Wuhan or Taipei about this epidemic. So I think even they didn’t think this was so bad. But I don’t know. So obviously they hoped they could control the outbreak, but I don’t know if it is true or not.

他們用中文說了一句…「春天來了，花兒開了」，疫情爆發後，我們可以在武漢或台北開會討論這一流行病。因此，我認為即使他們並不認為這很糟糕。但是我不知道。因此，顯然他們希望他們能夠控制疫情，但我不知道這是否成立。


