---
# System prepended metadata

title: Session w/ Julio and Andreas

---

Episode 3 of Slow Portals
-



**Main thread:** Nomination of p2panda - why Julio thinks it's important and what Andreas sees as important in privacy-tech
**URL:** https://zoom.us/j/93756101810
**Date:** Dec 21st @1600 UTC
**Length:** 45 mins w/15 min overflow period

**Conversation Flow:**

- **Welcome and Intros** [2 min]

Hi and welcome. We are here on Slow Portals, which is live discussion that will be recorded like a podcast, but with some audience also listening and able to talk, ask questions if they want. So you can think of it alot like a twitter spaces.

- **Overview of the Namada rPGF program** [2 min]
So we've been having a series of discussions  happening on the Namada discord around their retroactive Public Goods Funding program. 
So rPGF as a tool is inherenthly rearward looking. Which has it's strengths and weaknesses. but certainly one of it's strengths is that it tries to remove prediction from the evaluation process. It can just say this looks like it had X impact, and we want to reward that.

The Namada rPGF program allowed anyone to nominate individuals or organizations they wanted to cast a light on. And at genesis 20% of NAM tokens are to be distributed to all types of contributors, coders, technologists, policy wonks, etc who have been highlighted through this program, among others.  

- Reminder of the purpose of these rPGF Exploration calls [2 min]”

This episode we are lucky enough to bring together nominee and nominator. Julio highlighted the work of Andreas among others on p2panda in building a protocol for local-first applications that run in decentralized environments. 

**Key Points about p2panda:**

p2panda is a protocol for local-first applications. 
 - Did it emerge while exploring a p2p festival platform? HOFFNUNG 3000? 
 - With all these other communities such as Scuttlebutt, DAT / Hypercore, Cabal, Chaos Computer Club, Fediverse, Antiuniversity Now and then 
 - Members have met weekly to hack this project together since 2019 and it has a legit demo now 
**Their Sites:**

https://p2panda.org/

**Link to the nomination:**

https://forum.namada.net/t/p2panda-rpgf-nomination/69

**Key Points about circlesUBI**

Circles is a digital complementary currency

**Site:**

https://joincircles.net/faq/

- privacy / or anonymity is a big sticking point as far as I understand for CirclesUBI currently, so can you tell me a bit about what you are hoping for there?
- I have this 2x2 matrix from one of your talks where youre talking about asset classes and privacy. let me see if I can do the visual justice - you have surveillance and anonymity on the X axis,and means of payment opposed with digital asset on the y axis. so what you get from this are 4 quadrants where you can talk about how various payment methods or currencies stack up in terms of our relationship to them. 
- Examples - worldcoin is a low surveillance digitall asset just like Visa/mastercard is a high surveillance means of payment.
- Cash being the ultimately private/anonymous means of payment. and you're goal for entropy is that it aspires to the qualities of cash in that it is highly anonymous, maybe even untraceable and also highly effective as a common payment
- So what is your vision for entropy.
- Are you familiar with Rohan Grey's vision for what digitall cash should look like?  How does entropy differ from that? is it just the issuing authority? If I'm correct, issuing authority is meant to be everyone, peer-to-peer ad unique. 

![Screen Shot 2024-01-02 at 9.12.42 PM](https://hackmd.io/_uploads/HytINSM_a.png)

**Possible Questions for Julio and Andreas:**
--
**Background:**
- Julio, you're an economic anthropologist, and there fore you talk about things in the technology world in a very interesting way. Would you give just a 1 or 2 minute intro of yourself. 

- Andreas you have an amazingly colourful background that i'm just starting to be familiar with. Art installations, music festivals, all kinds of creative outputs - can you tell us a bit about your background as well?


- What got you into this work (what did you see that seemed important/interesting to do)?

**Q's on p2panda:**
- What is the aim behind p2panda?
- Can you explain more about what building local-first means?
- Why should we care/strive for data ownership?


**What they are working on now:**


- What moves the needle for you? What’s a win? what are you looking for?
 
- What is the local-first principle and why is it important?

- is storing your own data only feasible for the end user? 

- If companies follow this own your data mandate aren't we just right back at centralized silos? 


- Who are you building for?

- Do you have any advice for communities starting out ( like Namada) and what’s important to focus on in the early days?


**Soundbites and clips**
- 
- we're not focused on super-performance, or edge cases (like 40 tb file transfers) We are interested on developer experience, so we try to pull in things which already exist, and combine that in an interface that is easy to use.

Local-First apps

- Pratically, If you support local-first it means that your application works perfectly without needing to be on the internet.
- Philisophically, it might mean that you build so that you don't need to rely on an interconnected network of super computeres around the world, such as we are mostly now. but to exchange information with a device right next to you, you would just be able to talk directly to it

- Conflict-resistant data types -

- P2panda doesn't have a global state the way that ETH or other networks does. it is trying to arrive at a global concensus, but it doesn't 


Soundbite around 33:14 about CRDTs and local first conflicts

Julio soundbite around 36:13 - about the monoculture of ETH and plurality that exists in the world

Julio soundbite around 48:10 about how ppl engage differently when they own their data.



