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# System prepended metadata

title: ukri-digital-rtp-skills-network-plus-grant

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# UKRI Digital RTP Skills Network Plus Grant

Link to call: https://www.ukri.org/opportunity/ukri-digital-research-technical-professional-skills-networkplus/

Slack Channel: https://ukrse.slack.com/archives/C070B1ZTF0D

Webinar 23rd May 2pm-3pm: https://www.ukri.org/events/ukri-digital-research-technical-professional-skills-networkplus-webinar/

# Register Interest
 - Jonathan Cooper | Head of Collaborations | UCL Advanced Research Computing Centre
 - Martin O'Reilly | Director of Research Engineering | The Alan Turing Institute
 - Andy Turner | Principal Architect | EPCC, University of Edinburgh
 - Katie Finch, Head of RSE, Exeter
 - Mark Turner, Head of RSE, Newcastle
 - Philip (Pip) Grylls, Senior RSE, Warwick
 - Sam Bland, N8CIR RSE Theme Lead
 - Colin Sauze, Senior RSE, National Oceanography Centre
 - Romain Thomas, Head of RSE, Sheffield
 - Matt Williams, Bristol
 - Samantha Finnigan, Durham
 - Ed Bennett, Senior RSE, Swansea University
 - James Graham, Head of RSE, King's College London
 - Eli Chadwick, Senior RSE, University of Manchester
 - Aleksandra Nenadic, SSI Training Lead, University of Manchester
 - Arianna Ciula, King's Digital Lab, King's College London
 - Paul Richmond, Professor of RSE, University of Sheffield
 - Fliss Guest, Senior RSE, Exeter
 - Andrew McHugh | Research Computing Manager | University of Glasgow
 - Alejandra Gonzalez Beltran | Head of Data | UK Atomic Energy Authority
 - Dan Short | RSE Group Leader | UK Atomic Energy Authority

# Goals

For this type of grant it is important to explain clearly *why* the network is needed. What specific problem does it address and what concrete outcomes is it intending to achieve? Activities (and especially the Flexible Fund) should then be tied to these and explain how they will achieve the desired outcomes.

- [name=Jonathan C] The RSE community is vibrant with a lot of grass-roots activity and even coordinating structures with the Society. However this is all volunteer effort and so change is slow. Simultaneously there's a massively growing demand for RSE skills: all RSE groups in the country are swamped with demand, embedded RSEs lack institutional support structures, and RSE skills training for researchers is patchy. This limits capacity to deliver on volunteer effort, and has EDI implications as under-represented groups tend to lack the resources to engage on a voluntary basis. Coordinating funding to provide network management/comms/events support alongside targeted funding for specific impactful activities will transform this situation and lead to a step change in the effectiveness of UK DRI investment, since research software skills are recognised as being critical in enabling researchers to exploit DRI fully.

# Ideas

## How wide to pitch - RSE only or broader

- [name=Martin O] I think the RSE community is ahead of the curve of many aspects of this work and could make a strong bid pulling together a lot of experience across this group and the Society / wider community. It looks like there will be somewhere between 5 and 9 awards depending on the scale of the bids so I can't quite decide whether the call is more interested in bids focussed on particular subsets of RTP roles (i.e. an RSE focussed bid), or ones knitting  / cross-pollinating across RTP communities / role sub-groups.
- [name=Martin O] I think we could probably pitch somewhere a bit wider than that given the broad definition of RSE we adopt in the community, though we'd need to co-ordinate with colleagues in more specific sub-communities in case they were looking to submit a bid themselves (e.g. research infrastructure / computing folk).
    - [name=Pip G] This is an angle we would be interested in, we have been thinking about apprenticeships and/or other avenues into RSE alongside system administration under the same umbrella.
- [name=Martin O] I wonder if this call might also be a good way to build a more connected support and skills ecosystem around the UK large scale research compute infrastructure as a separate bid? There was a workshop to shape a "National Federated Compute Services" Network Plus with the UKRI DRI folk a couple of months ago, but this looked like it would be looking to cover a much wider range of pathfinder / proof of concept activity beyond people and skills.
    - I think folks at Bath and Cardiff are planning something in this space working with the HPC SIG. Exeter will go along to the community meeting for that bid and can loop others in if interested.
    - [name=Martin O] Yes please!
    - [name=Jonathan C] UCL ARC are definitely interested in participating in such a bid
- [name=Martin O] On the question about focusing on RSE vs wider RTP roles, I wonder if there might be a complementary two pronged pitch here. One prong focused on pushing the boundary of supporting and growing RSE as a profession (entry pathways + industry connections + career stability/progression  + ... ) and one focused on working across roles to solve these challenges more generally and leverage the work / progress on the RSE role? We could sensibly constrain the latter by focusing on the alignment and leverage from having these other roles in the same teams / departments / organisational structures as RSEs at consortia members and also via connections with projects from the previous RTP/STP platforms call like STEP-UP, People in Data and X-cited (edited)
    - [name=Jonathan C] We can also note as Pip says that much entry-level training is common between roles, and that RSEs often find themselves filling other RTP roles when more specialist staff aren't available.
    - [name=Samantha F] There's also a real deficit in links  between RTP sub-areas. Very little [Data Science <-> Project Management <-> Research Infrastructure Engineering <-> RSE] cross-linking. A NetworkPlus grant may be a way to figure out how to build those links, that have not happened organically. What structures work? From the RSE perspective, *reducing our own siloing* is good.
    - [name=Samantha F] Further to that: I wonder where RCP & RIE professionals might fit into this bid, e.g. supporting the key national/regional HPC platforms. However, afaik the RIE Theme lead role within the N8 is not filled? [name=Sam Bland] Indeed we haven't been able to fill the RIE role so far.
- [name= Paul R] I am also interested in the more academic embedded aspect of RSE and ensuring that there are pathways between research and "service" roles. Groups have been a huge success for the RSE community but as a result embedded RSEs get far less attention. This call is specifically looking at pathways (plural) so we should avoid a one size fits all approach.

## Routes into RSE, e.g. apprenticeships

- [name=Martin O] I'd be super keen on figuring out something involving an apprenticeship route into the profession. I've been wanting to do this at the Turing for ages and it's come up in conversations with our skills team recently, so the timing could be good for this here. In terms of entry points into the profession, I think we could also look at how we connect with industry, both as a sector with RSE roles in its won right and also as a source for "non-R" SEs making the move across to an RSE role. I think the UCL/Imperial CCMI ("RSE") CDT would be interested in the industry connection aspect.
  - [name=Andy T] Also very keen on this aspect, particularly routes into RSE that do not involve University study as a prerequisite. We have had a tentative look at the link to Scottish Modern Apprenticeships but not yet found time to invest serious effort.
  - [name=Pip G] As above Warwick are interested in this route, WRT non university study routes this is a track that seems especially promising for the SysAdmin side.
  - [name=Jonathan C] UCL ARC have just started having RID apprentices and they're doing well.
  - [name=Samantha F] Durham ARC will host some T-Level students in the summer– pitching a little earlier than the apprenticeship route. Hard to measure how early to promote RSE as a career path.
  - [name=AndyT] Samantha, EPCC has had a number of internships for high school students at Advanced Higher level and they have all been great and they have got a lot out of it.
  - [name= Paul R] W.r.t. Pathways I think that more could be done to enable transitions (both ways) between RTP roles and research/academic roles. Currently it seems that this is a one way move. I suspect that might be a blocker to embedded staff with domain knowledge wanting to apply skills more broadly.
      - [name=Jonathan C] We've had it happen both ways on occasion, but RTP back into academia certainly is less common.
- [name=Martin O] On the "routes into the profession" front, perhaps also a potential opportunity to connect with aligned CDTs on establishing a baseline of "good enough" software, data and collaboration skills in their programmes? Or possibly something more ambitious targeting undergraduate / master's students?
    - [name=Jonathan C] Our new EPSRC Centre for Doctoral Training in Collaborative Computational Modelling at the Interface (first students next year) would be a good case study for this - it's in essence an RSE training programme.
- [name=Colin S] At NOC we've been talking about bringing apprentices or year in industry students into our RSE, AI and Research IT teams. We're particularly interested in trying to get people a rounded experience with a mix of research IT and software development skills while also exposing them to some science. We'd definitely be interested in getting involved in something wider and trying to exchange experiences and develop best practices for bringing in people via alternate career paths. 
- [name=Mark T] I'm also super interested in internships/apprenticeships/secondments generally.
- [name=Samantha F] Suggestion: Is there a work package to come out of this bid to define a standard for RSE apprenticeships? +1
    - [name=Jonathan C] Or at least start towards this with a collection of examples and recommendations of best practice / minimal learning needed.
    - [name=Andy T] There seem to be plenty of Modern Apprenticeships already defined that match well onto RTP roles (including RSE) so I do not think any more need defined. What we could develop is an "apprenticehip package" to make it easier for RSE groups to take advantage of the schemes at their organisation (for example, most Universities pay the Apprentiship levy but do not maximise their use of it, I think). This would help people through the admin hurdles to get this up and running and provide a checklist on running effective apprenticeships that could be improved over time.
- [name=Paul R] Need to also consider routes out. or RSE.
- [name=Dan S] Perhaps also worth considering routes into RSE from industrial SE backgrounds that lack the knowledge of research practices? The focus is often on upskilling on the SE side for people with a more research-focussed background, but the converse is a good way to pull in relevant pre-existing skillsets. (I see there's some related discussion in [Career Structures](#Career-structures), but I think also worth considering as a route into RSE).

## Training more broadly

- [name=Mark T] I'd also like to see some training modules that are considered core for all RTP professions and people can then specialise from. For example I think all RTPs should have a very basic understanding of data governance and securtiy, research finance, and project management. Building on top of those adds detail to the particular role a person is in and also allows them to understand commonality with other RTP roles.
- [name=Mark T] I know the call is for RTPs but I think we should make every effort to highlight points of connection with PRISM and research roles to show we're thinking about the entire research landscape.
- [name=Colin S] Mark T: I presume you mean modules for the apprentice/intern to take? But what about something similar for those who would be supervising them? I imagine for many supervisors it might be their first experience of management.
- [name=Jonathan C] Like Colin I'd like to include training for new/aspiring *senior* RTPs in the bid. There are several reasons for/aspects to this:
    - A fair amount of entry-level training, and training in specific technical skills, already exists within the RSE space, and existing projects are working to expand this. So it's a hard sell to do more here
    - The Flexible Fund aspect could provide some money for people to then bid to fill specific identified gaps in training provision, at any level.
    - Further "aspiring leaders" workshops would fit nicely here, and materials generated from these could then be shared more broadly.
    - Agile project management training focused on RSE would also be an option to include.
    - UCL has some very good advanced leadership training partners that [name=Jonathan C] could reach out to.
- [name=Jonathan C] Recycling an idea from a previous unsuccessful proposal: an RSE architecture team/service to support large/complex grants. This would have a focus on mentoring local staff in architecture skills as part of the project engagements, hence contributes to training.
- [name=Jonathan C] A secondment scheme similarly has advanced training impact, and fits well in the Flexible Fund portion of the call (which needs to be at least 50% of the bid).
- [name=Rob H] I'd also suggest adding something around accessibility, both from the angle of developing accessible software, and also providing accessible services. +1


## Career structures

- [name=Jonathan C] We've talked before about turning RSE into a credentialled profession. This could be looked at further. The goal here would be to make it easier to move between institutions/industry at levels *above* entry-level.
  - [name=Sam Bland] this links nicely with the RSE Competencies Toolkit
  - [name=Martin O] +1 on the point about making it easy to move across organisations/industry at above entry level. I think a key thing that will make RSE a profession is not just being able to have a career as an RSE at a particular organisation, but to be able to more easily move organisations. Combined with growing the number of RSE posts and organisations with RSE posts / teams, I'd hope we could get to the point where you could move to one of the 10 largest cities in the UK and reasonably expect to get an RSE job locally in a reasonable amount of time.
- [name=Dan S] One topic that I see coming up a fair bit is the management vs technical route as an RSE. There can be a perception that to move up through grades one needs to take on line management, but we've been working to distinguish between management and technical tracks within RSE (and to some extent RSE-adjacent roles). We're not where I'd like to be with this yet, but the scope of this call seems to be a good catalyst for looking at this across the profession - I'd argue that a management-track RSE has a distinct set of skills that could also be supported by the network (and is to some extent already, with mentoring etc.).

## AI/ML RTPs
- [name=Martin O / Paul R / Romain T] Is there potential for an AI/ML focussed bid that is cleanly differentiable from other bids? Some initial ideas for areas of focus that might be a good fit for an AI/ML bid below. Other thoughts / ideas / comments welcome. Note that, while we think that AI/ML is an area that would likely be attractive to UKRI, we're keen for any AI/ML focussed bid to be not just taking something that could be equally well served through another bid and sticking "with AI" on the end and are looking to shape any AI/MNL bid to not directly compete on the key focus areas of any other bid. 
    - Supporting established RSEs to specialise in AI/ML (how much does this overlap with one of the core focuses of the proposed HPC / Research Computing bid?).
    - Including other RTP shapes of role and / or skills - e.g. data wrangling, ResOps / MLOps, data scientists (what other roles are we missing)
    - This could potentially be a good concrete focus for the more "up/cross-skilling" shape of skills placement / exchange - i.e. shorter placements on projects at other organisations where the expectation is less about being a fully funded RSE on the project and more about doing something useful to the project but with a primary focus on the skills the secondee gains.
    - Defining a set of "core" AI/ML RSE/broader RTP skills / competencies that put an RSE is good stead to learn the (very) broader range of AI/ML skills on the job. Connecting to and augmenting existing skills training but very much targeted at those with an exsiting baseline in more generic RSE skills.
    - Working with the AI CDTs to potentially standardise / shape their training component to provide the baseline core AI/ML RSE/broader RTP skills, with the aim being that all / most folk completing a PhD at an AI CDT would have the RSE/RTP skills required to take on the role at standard level.
    - Working with AI CDTs to offer placements on AI/ML projects as part of the RSE/RTP folk working on the project. Integrate this as much as possible with both the placement / exchange programme for established RSEs/RTPs in this bid and any programme / work in any other bid / existing RTP community / projects.
    - Leverage the existing connections between the data science / AI / ML focuses at universities via the [Turing University Network](https://www.turing.ac.uk/turing-university-network) (65 universities) and between RSE/other RTP groups via the RSE Society and other community initiatives, including those [funded by the previous RTP platform call](https://www.ukri.org/news/new-funding-to-support-research-technical-professionals/) (in particular the NRPAISE, STEP-UP and People in Data projects)
    - [name=Andy T] Ensure ethical AI is a core part of AI work. RTPs have a core responsibility to ensure this is considered within all AI/ML work. Link RTPs to ethics experts to ensure RTPs have appreciation of issues and, in the other direction, all ethics experts to get direct examples of how ethics principles are built into projects (I guess this is building on top of material already available in The Turing Way)
    - [name=Andy T] How do we get routes into AI/ML RTP careers without the traditional university-based pathways?

## An HPC DRI focused bid

- UCL, Turing and others have been discussing [a potential bid in this area - see separate notes document](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vDwNqQmvqrn5yBG9tjrTDUoYxJH2fCrplQEaqtZdaus/edit?usp=sharing)

## Other ideas that don't fit neatly above

- [name=Samantha F] The Aim of the bid includes the phrase "*equitably bring together disciplines, sectors, and domains*" - to this end I wanted to draw attention to the **Role diversity** and **Inclusion** work going on within the society EDI working group, & wondering if there is a vector here to mobilise similar work.
- [name=Martin O] Given the steer that the call might be targeting less established roles than RSEs, what would an RSE-enabled but not RSE-focussed bid look like? I think there's a potentially strong proposal focussed on addressing common challenges across RTP roles and / or bringing learnings from roles where these have already been addressed to other roles (e.g. around bringing people into the professions, upskilling / cross-skilling, competencies, career progression / sustainability etc). Perhaps the overarching theme is connecting and learning across RTP professions?
    - I think that in both cases we would find ourselves both identifying common challenges / approaches / solutions, and also identifying differences in these challenges and their solutions across roles.
    - I think there could be multiple sorts of organisations / connections between them:
        - Organisations with multiple RTP roles that are well connected / have some existing commonalities across these roles at their organisation.
        - Organisations looking to better connect / align different RTP roles in their organisations (some organisations may be in this category for some roles and the previous category for others)
        - Connecting existing / emerging communities for other RTP roles with their corresponding RSE community/communities (e.g. at national / regional / domain or interest focus). This feels like the primary connection to the previously funded RTP projects like STEP-UP and People in Data, though there might also be connections through the organisations involved in these and those looking to better connect / align RTP roles.
    - [name=Ed B] The HPC space is one area where there is significant diversity of RTP roles but with common baseline knowledge. Bath (with GW4 and Supercomputing Wales) put in an unsuccessful proposal to the previous call including multiple strands, one of which was a degree apprenticeship. They/we are currently looking to broaden the group or join up with other HPC-facing work for this call.
    - [name=Sam Bland] There are RSE leaders who are are at capacity running their RSE team and cannot also lead a local community. I would like to see some cross discipline community champions that can receive and run community building skills courses. Their role would be to identify stakeholders and members of each community in their institution; raise awareness and provide guidance for existing communities; coordinate the cross-linking of both disciplines and institutions; assess and potentially standardize methods of communicating community resources and activities to all corners of their institution. In the same way as we have the RSE leaders meetings we should have DRI community leaders meetings to share ideas on maintining communities. This could become another career track/job title.
- [name=Paul R] The call is about **skills** and careers. We should not focus only on RTPs themselves but consider RTP skills that are required by all researchers as well. I.e. With respect to RSE just is not just about RSEs but the practice of Research Software Engineering as part of research (which is not just undertaken by RSEs).
    - Very good point!
    - [name=Eli C] Those of us working on the RSE Competencies Toolkit have been talking about how to incorporate more than just RSEs - because of this skills overlap. This grant seems like a good opportunity to bring in people in more diverse RTP roles to contribute to the toolkit. +1

# Actions to take forwards

1. [name=Paul R] Approach UKRI about a virtual round table, perhaps as an RSE Society event.
    - [name= Paul R] Webinar to be annouced.

# Groups

* Anyone keen to lead on a bid please identify yourself!
    * [name=Jonathan C] I'm happy to do so, but don't want to step on toes if others are keen.
    * [name=Martin O] I'd be keen to, but also happy for others to if that's a better fit. If we end up with an AI/ML RTP focussed bid, I think that's the one I'd be most interested in / best placed to lead on. Otherwise, I'd be interested in leading on a general RSE-focussed bid but would be equally happy for someone else to if that's a better fit.
    * [name=Sam B] (Via N8CIR) We are going to go down the apprenticeship and accreditation route. We have potential collaborators in industry and apprenticeship schemes. We need some more collaborators around the leading of cohorts and skill/accreditation definition.
    * [name=Arianna C] KDL has been approached by the RSE in A&H CIG of the UK Ireland Digital Humanities Association - we are assessing whether a bid from an under-invested sector by default makes sense or whether best to contribute to / integrate our needs with this wider bid would make more sense; links to EPSRC STEP-UP platform need to be brought forward regardless


# Questions for the UKRI Webinar (TBC end of May)
 - [name=Sam Bland] - Is there a focus on established or new networks?
 - [name=Arianna Ciula] - Would applications that address domain-specific challenges be welcomed or should these preferably be integrated into cross-disciplinary bids?
