---
# System prepended metadata

title: LTIPP Application Rev 1 -  Feedback
tags: [arbitrum-ltipp]

---


# Revision 1

**==-> https://hackmd.io/oW3QRHfzTK-VAUXr2a947g==**


# Feedback 1

## Section 2a

> I appreciate you including details of the products offered by Kleros. These could be placed in Section 1, under 'Project Description'.

:heavy_check_mark: 

---
> Regarding the team's experience, I recommend describing the team's background, sharing your social media profiles, and providing sources where their experience and background are documented.

:heavy_check_mark: 
- [x] JB's bio
- [X] Fede's bio
- [x] Clement's bio
- [x] Guangmian's bio
- [X] Alex's bio

---
> In the composability section, please reiterate the link to all the integrations outside of Arbitrum, highlighting the most relevant ones.

:heavy_check_mark:
JB - expanded with a mention of our open interfaces onchain and concrete examples of onchain integrations

Alex - I input the Klerosworld link with a specific sentence 
Please find more details of all our ecosystem partners there: [kleros.world](https://kleros.world/).

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> UMA is a well-known protocol in the Arbitrum ecosystem. It would be good if you shared some bullet-points or TLDR on the differences and why you believe Kleros is a better product.

:heavy_check_mark: 
Alex - Input Kleros and UMA Strenght & Weakness
Quick tldr from the article of the strenght and weakness of each project: 
* UMA: 
    *  Strength: 
        *  Optimistic oracle approach favors speed and simplicity.
        *  Efficient for straightforward questions with clear timelines.
    * Weakness: 
        * Less suited for complex disputes requiring detailed evidence and deliberation.
* Kleros:
    *  Strength:
       * Appeals system and juror engagement cater to complex cases.
       * Robust mechanism for dispute resolution with evidence submission.
    *  Weakness:
        * Resolution process may be longer due to detailed evaluation and appeals 

---
> You mention jurors (as relevant user / target) for the first time when you describe retention / KPIs. I believe it will be helpful for the council to have in section 1 a short description of what a juror is, how to participate in the protocol and what they do.

:heavy_check_mark: (Alex)

As we will mentionned many times the "juror" side of Kleros protocol in this post, please find below some explanations: 

**What is a Juror?**

A juror in Kleros is an essential participant in the dispute resolution protocol. Jurors play a crucial role in reaching consensus on decisions regarding various cases submitted to the Kleros Court. They contribute to ensuring fairness, transparency, and impartiality in the resolution process.

**How to Participate?**

Participating as a juror in Kleros is open to anyone interested in contributing to decentralized justice. Users can become jurors by staking the Kleros Network Token (PNK) and actively engaging in the arbitration process.

**Responsibilities:**

1. **Arbitrating Disputes:** Jurors review evidence presented in disputes and provide their judgment based on predefined rules and guidelines.
  
2. **Maintaining Impartiality:** Jurors are expected to remain unbiased and make decisions solely based on the evidence presented, without any external influence.

3. **Ensuring Transparency:** Jurors' decisions are transparent and accessible to all parties involved in the dispute, promoting trust in the arbitration process.

Participating as a juror in Kleros offers individuals the opportunity to contribute to a decentralized ecosystem of justice while earning rewards for their involvement.



---
> You mention that “a key indicator is the amount of PNK tokens staked”. Could you explain what staking is for? 

:heavy_check_mark: 

Done by JB - Alex integrate the text below in the doc 

The Pinakion (PNK) enable us to create the right incentives and preventing [Sybil attacks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_attack).To be able to attack Kleros court, you need to get selected enough times to be a juror for the same case in order to change the outcome. Generally, this means that the attacks needs 51% of the total (staked) tokens.
PNK enhances the security of Kleros by making any attack extremely [hard to achieve, expensive ](https://medium.com/kleros/why-kleros-needs-a-native-token-5c6c6e39cdfe)and also enable Kleros to be forked in the extreme case of a successful 51% attack.



|                                              | Using native token (PNK)                                                                                                                                                              | Staking ETH to be draw as juror                                                                                                                                      |
| -------------------------------------------- | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
| **Cost and difficulty of obtaining 51%**     | PNK market becomes quickly illiquid as try to buy up 51% of all tokens. Attacker pays on average well above the initial market price, may not be able to find enough for sale at all. | ETH market is liquid, so purchase will only move price per ETH slightly off of market price. Probably not that hard to find enough ETH on exchanges.                 |
| **Self-inflicted economic harm to attacker** | By attacking, undermine system and dramatically reduce the value of PNK - which attacker has half of.                                                                                 | Attack on Kleros has minimal effect on value of ETH. Attacker can sell off ETH afterward paying only the spread (which isn’t that much as ETH is relatively liquid). |
| **Last ditch defence in case of 51% attack** | Fork PNK to remove attacker’s holdings. Disruptive but provides path forward if absolutely necessary.                                                                                 | No apparent way out of attack.                                                                                                                                       |



---
> Could you share the links to your live dashboards?

==TODO==

#### ==Temporary answer==

https://stats.kleros.builders 

Note: it might take 30 sec to 1 minute to fetch all the data

Some Dune dashboards have been created by community members
- https://dune.com/salva/kleros-pnk by [@salva](https://twitter.com/SalvaCzo)
- https://dune.com/kouei/kleros-v1-overview by [@k0uei1in](https://twitter.com/k0uei1in)
- https://dune.com/mar2/kleros-pnk

#### ==Better answer==
Koki is preparing a better interactive dashboard


## Section 2b

> Native means that the first deployment was made in Arbitrum. So it’s not the case with Kleros.But it would be interesting to explain to the Council that you chose to develop v2 on Arbitrum, and it would be beneficial if you explained the reasons behind this decision.

:heavy_check_mark: (JB)
From the outset we wanted Kleros v2 to be cheaper to use, without sacrificing on security. By choosing a L2 chain as opposed to an alt-L1 chain Kleros v2 inherits from the security of Ethereum. We identified that Arbitrum is ahead with its fraud proof mechanism, making it an obvious choice.

---
> Regarding your token: The Arbitrum bridged PNK token can be found at: 0x330bd769382cfc6d50175903434ccc8d206dcae5. Current liquidity on Arbitrum is at 18K PNK approx and the incentives target is to reach 2M staked. Is your plan to incentivize users to bridge PNK or will you provide liquidity?

==TODO== @Juan ?

---
> Regarding 2024 Protocol Roadmap, I'm having a hard time understanding what functionalities will the protocol have during v2 Neo launch. Could you develop this further?

:heavy_check_mark: (JB)
The v2 protocol is deployed progressively throughout the v2 Neo and the v2 Agora iterations.

Here is an overview of their differences:
| Features                                               | **V2 Neo**                                                                                                                        | **V2 Agora** |
|----------------------------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|--------------|
| Court hierarchy                                          | ✔️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| Anyone can be a juror<br>(permissionless staking)        | ✖️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| Anyone can stake <br>as much PNK as they want            | ✖️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| Anyone willing to pay disputes fees<br>can create a dispute | ✔️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| Any IArbitrable contract<br>can create a dispute         | [DisputeResolver](https://github.com/kleros/kleros-v2/blob/dev/contracts/src/arbitration/arbitrables/DisputeResolver.sol)<br>only | ✔️            |
| Anyone can submit evidence                               | ✔️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| Random juror sortition                                   | ✔️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| Juror voting                                             | ✔️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| Hidden votes via <br>2-steps commit/reveal               | ✔️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| Appeals rounds with `2n+1` juror                         | ✔️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| Appeals rounds crowdfunding                              | ✔️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| Ruling execution                                         | ✔️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| PNK juror rewards/penalties                              | ✔️                                                                                                                                 | ✔️            |
| Dispute fee juror rewards                                | 100%                                                                                                                              | 100%         |

---
> Also, are integrations (or mainnet/gnosis integrations migration) a milestone or objective during LTIPP incentives program? Please explain. 

:heavy_check_mark:  @jaybuidl 

No they are not

--- 
## Section 4

> You mention that you are excluding all the team addresses from benefiting from the ARB rewards and from being included into the metrics. For transparency, will you share the addresses? 

:heavy_check_mark:  @jaybuidl 

I have shared the list of eligible user addresses, but not the team addresses.


We could say "Information related to our team address may be available upon request" but not sure yet. ==What do you guys think?==



---
> Could you share the link to Camelot pool.

:heavy_check_mark: (Alex) - I have includeded this link in the doc. 
https://info.camelot.exchange/pair/v3/0x28e90b865292593b32fda5d61a9b34076ecfb05f

---
> You mention that you will initially set a 2000 PNK cap, but plan to increase it during the program. Could you break this down? How much will it be increased and what events will trigger an increase?

:heavy_check_mark: (JB)
We will initially set a staking cap of 2000 PNK per address and will re-evaluate it at the end of each week. The goal is to find the optimal tradeoff between whale protection (aka "packing the court") and under-utilization. If the total staking on Kleros v2 is at less than 80% utilization (1.6M PNK), then the cap per address will double for the following week up to a maximum cap of 32K PNK. If the 80% threshold is reached, then the cap per address resets to 2000 PNK.

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